God Spot

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God Spot
This Christian Resource Blog has been created by a group of friends from around the world. Our purpose is to provide links to useful resources, some commentary on topical or doctrinal issues, a place where anyone can come with questions and a means whereby we can share our faith. And above all, to grow and encourage each other. As Christians, we believe we bear God's image in this world, and seek to glorify God's name in this endeavour. Any Christian who wants to join with us is very welcome!

Sunday, October 31, 2004

Translations

I used the KJV until I was 22 when I went to Bible College. I then changed to RSV, now I use the NIV. Sometimes I dig out my old KJV and get tongue tied when trying to read it, yet when I taught Good News Club, we found that for memorising, the kids were able to manage the KJV better. Perhaps 'cause it's more poetic. We are pretty privileged to have so many to choose from. We have had some people not come back to our church because we rarely use the KJV - after all as the old lady said "if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul then it's good enough for me"

# posted by shellymac @ 6:11 pm

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Square - pretty true.

Yes Gary, our family was pretty square at the time. I however am no longer square but rather round (according to the mirror) - no seriously - I had a very solid upbringing steeped in God's Word, but I think that my parents were afraid that we kids would make wrong choices. Which we did - especially Garry & me. I wasn't as 'square' as the others, my corners were rounded - now a days there don't seem to be any straight edges left. Even mum has changed in her view alot - I think that Garry (brother) and me helped do that during mum and dad's sleepless nights worrying about us, I think I gave the most sleepless nights though. It's one thing to protect your kids, and another thing to stifle them. I was a country kid, shy and self conscious and suddenly I was nursing in South Yarra at 17. I discovered that there was another world 'out there', and that not all non-christian friends were bad influences.

Hey Gary - we are going to have to agree to disagree on our views of the creation of the world! You and Garry would have much in common now-a-days :)

Thanks Geoff for sharing about Acts. I did Acts at Bible College all those years ago - it wasn't my favourite book though. I loved John and even got an A+ . The A's were few and far between. My lowest mark was D- for New Testament Greek!

I have attempted to go to BSF on two separate occasions, each time lasting a few months. I'm afraid our lecturer is rather monotone in her approach and I found myself going to sleep after a busy day. I also wasn't disciplined with my homework, and would find myself taking the questions to work on a Monday and answering them between patients. Not the proper way to study!

We have just finished a Prophecy Conference that we held during this month. It was very interesting. Why do you think it says in the Bible that when there is the New Heaven and the New Earth that there will be no sea? Check it out and tell me what you think.

# posted by shellymac @ 5:53 pm

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Acts 15 (BSF this week)

Someone mentioned to me that a study of Acts will be challenging, and indeed it is. This week's BSF chapters particularly. Not because of the doctrine (salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ), which is a truth we all here have embraced (thanks to God for His revelation of that truth). But the whole scenario surrounding the huge issue that this was at the time of Acts 15 in the early church.

I have known many of the various bits of the story but never put it all together in context, and seen how the major players - Paul, James, Peter etc - were affected by this issue. Here's just a few snippets for anyone who's interested to read it all in historical context, and think about the various ones.

As the church at Antioch in Syria grew, the number of Gentile believers was increasing, and these as well as being uncircumcised had a very different attitude to the law to that of the Jewish Christians. We can presume that the Jewish Christians were concerned about the number of Gentiles that were joining the church because the church was losing its' Jewish flavour (ref. Hebrews), the past efforts of law-abiding Jews were being devalued, and it seems it was very difficult for Jewish believers steeped in the law and ceremonies of Moses to accept salvation by grace (plus nothing).

So, the very first Church Council of apostles and elders met in Jerusalem to thrash out the issue of circumcision. This culminated in a letter being sent to the church at Antioch, setting out four requirements for Gentile believers (4 things that would cause great offence to the Jewish believers, so to be avoided) but making it clear that circumcision (as a mark of legalism, adding to grace alone) was not required for salvation.

James (in charge in Jerusalem by now?) used scripture (Amos 9:11-12) and God's revelation to Peter as the basis for the decision. This Jerusalem Council meeting achieved some great things, including formal acceptance of Gentile believers, moving the church on from its' Jewish roots, church unity, and the establishment of the doctrine of salvation by grace for Jews and Gentiles alike (I found the statement by Peter in Acts 15:11 a very big one "But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will").

The BSF study then took us off into Galatians, where Paul writes about the dangers of the "false brothers" who continued to oppose his ministry and message, calling them by various names including "the circumcision group" (NIV, Gal2:11-13), those trying to be justified by law - fallen from grace. Incidentally, Paul seems to have been dogged all his life by these "false brothers" (and I sometimes get surprised when I find them even today!)

In Gal1:4 Paul outlines the true gospel (Jesus gave himself for our sins) and describes "another gospel" (adulterated, adding anything else in the way of legalism, works, method).

Examples some gave of "other gospels" we have today included requirements of baptism, tongues, communion, church attendance.

Apparently Gal2:1-10 refers to the same Jerusalem Council as in Acts 15. Paul has strong support for his message (James, Peter & John, v.9).

Then Gal2:11-21 refers to a later date - and Peter fails in being an example of grace alone, because of his fear of man's disapproval and presumably a strong sense of tradition in the Jewish customs and desire not to offend fellow Jews. By his actions, Peter was reinforcing a separation between Jews and Gentiles. Anyway, Peter graciously accepted Paul's rebuke.

I was also impressed by Paul's character (Gal1:10) in being willing to not seek approval of man in this issue that was so divisive and yet, as Paul recognised, so fundamentally significant for individuals in the Antioch and Galatia churches, and for the church itself.

Gary, have a good morning with Paul B. Tell us about it! Fred is lecturing Monday. I will attempt to answer you about small-brained humans shortly...

# posted by geoff @ 9:27 am

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Saturday, October 30, 2004

Home Churches

Geoff and Carol and others,

We have never, ('we' being Shirley and me, that married woman I live with, and am married to), back to the issue, we have never been to a home church, and would like to -- hint, hint.

As I keep saying we are not enthused at the Anglican church, but then again its clearly one of the places where ideas go around and some people push for todays issues ahead of the rest.

I was thinking while walking the dog, the big issues when I was a teenager were 1. introducing into Australia the contraceptive pill, 2. accepting bibles other than the King James Version, 3. ideas of expressing Christianity (at 13 I read 'Honest to God' and understood about half on it), 4. the divorce revolution and the need for the Family Law Act, (1972 I think), and 5 the teaching of evolution in schools.

As a teenager I had no opinion on 1 and 4, at 12 I had and loved my Phillips New Testament and thought the KJV was 'old hat' and read a lot of the modern religious book (while listening to Stan Rofe and Don Lunn, remember them Geoff). I've always thought that through evolution God made humans, plants and animals.

This is why I shocked Michele's family (among a few other things). They were all 'squares'.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:10 pm

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Friday, October 29, 2004

Home Church

Thanks Michelle and Gary for keeping this blog going wth some "life" while Geoff was away and I was busy!

I enjoy the Home Church thing..... and enjoy very much participating. But most of all, I enjoy the feeling of the spirit in the small room as people all meet together in Gods name to share the joy and love they have in Christ together. In a larger church service, there is a different atmosphere. Yes, the Holy Spirit can also be present, but it is just different from the little meeting of some of Gods children bonding and sharing.

You can have this same bond when a small group of His children get together even informally and speak together of their common love. Yes, it is FELLOWSHIP that I think I appreciate the most.

It is 1am here in NZ and I am very sleepy.... maybe I shall come back tomorrow and edit this post!!!!!

Night!
Carol:)

# posted by Caroline @ 9:51 pm

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Discovery this week

The discovery announced of intelligent but small humans in Indonesia suits me fine: that intelligent human life is fairly recent. The pre-humans of neanderthal in europe about 30,000 years ago and homo erectus in africa 100,000 years we not intelligent enough to be 'human' in the biblical view -- being able to communicate with God and after the fall, knowing of good and evil. And because we know of two of the rivers mentioned the garden of eden where our first representatives were, was in the middle east.

Who knows when that was, (the Garden), but my sources put Abrahan at 1,900 to 1,800 bc. I have no trouble with the view that God caused humans to evolve and they were really human when they were able to communicate with God, as we are able.

Comments ........

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:28 pm

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Variety

Gary, your comment: "So I'll start with the generalization that all churches have little variety. Mine has different services from the prayer book and they are not followed rigidly, but there is a sameness to the style. And I expect that the others are much the same. Certainly the strength of Holy Tinity is the good teaching."

Agree with you on that last point. And if anyone wants to savour the good teaching that Gary is used to, here's an opportunity at the BHC Summer Convention (Paul Barker is one speaker, Mike Raiter who is an equally gifted teacher - Moore College Sydney, where else? - is the other).

Now, mine is different. Home-churches have certain strengths (and some weaknesses which could be fixed - given the will). Lack of teaching is one, but conventions (such as BHC) provide opportunity to address this shortfall. One major advantage is the opportunity for each member to participate in prayer and with a personal word, such as 1Cor14:26 "What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up".

Another advantage is the saving in costs, time and energy on building/property management and bureaucracy. Those of us studying Acts, comments? Gary, you've done Acts also!

# posted by geoff @ 2:09 pm

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Sunday, October 24, 2004

On time

Well yes Michele, the Lord has variety and while you and your husband have been 22 years at the one church, the rev. Carol announced this morning that she is leaving. Knowing her, mainly its at the Lord's leading to where she is needed and can use her talents more, in a more cynical mood I'd say well that's how your career goes, jump to a better job.

Meanwhile, Paul Barker gave and excellent talk on Solomon's prayer and how anyone can call on the Lord and he will hears and keep his promises.

This is while I was looking up Mercedes Benz in my bible dictionary. You know the line of the prayer, I mean song --

"Oh! Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz,
My friends all drives Porches, I must make amends!"

I got nowhere fast, and alas I'll always been poor. It seems that 'mercs' are not in God's promises. Next week I'll look up Volvos.
Nor did I get out of church fast enough, someone asked me to do more for the place!

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 4:29 pm

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Saturday, October 23, 2004

How Long?

October 10th made it 22 years since we first came to this church and Wilf is still the Pastor. I could write a book with all the different experiences etc that we have gone through!
Most people in our suburb know Wilf as he will go up to anyone and speak to them, I on the other hand find it more difficult to do so. Yet when I'm at work I speak to heaps of people.
Although my husband is the Pastor of the church, I am not the 'conventional Pastor's wife'. For several years I tried to be the 'ideal' pastor's wife that fulfilled what most people's preconceived idea should be, but I found that I was close to a break-down. I have learned with great difficulty to say no over the years. In doing so there is the heavy feeling of guilt because I'm not doing what is expected of a Pastor's wife. But I have to be true to myself. I don't like it when people introduce me as 'the Pastor's wife', I prefer to be introduced as 'Michele - her husband is our Pastor'. I still do heaps in the church - probably too much - but I have learnt over the years the 'warning bells' when I need to back off.
Because we are not in a main stream church such as the Anglican or Baptist or whatever, we are not moved on after a few years. There have been some churches that have wanted us, or we have wanted to go there, but each time the Lord closed the door. There are advantages and draw backs in staying in a church for such a long time. For one thing, our kids didn't have to be shifted from school to school but were able to complete their whole schooling without shifting around. Wilf has taught several hundred children over the years in R.E. and many of those kids who are now adults will still come up to him and call him Pastor Dawson. People know that there is stability with aving the same Pastor. One of the disadvantages is that you can just become a peice of the furniture and can also be taken advantage of. Oh well - the Lord is in control.

# posted by shellymac @ 7:35 pm

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on variety

So I'll start with the generalization that all churches have little vatiety. Mine has different services from the prayer book and they are not followed rigidly, but there is a sameness to the style. And I expect that the others are much the same. Certainly the strength if Holy Tinity is the good teaching.

I think as a witness to the world, we should try not to shop or work on Sunday. I said at bsf leaders meeting that a few times and the Chinese members were shocked -- Sunday seems to be for yum cha and shopping. Chinese women love shopping and getting a bargain. Nor do we usual go to a restaurant on a Sunday but we certainly go out and buy something if its necessary.

If Paul Barker has an obvious fault its that he sees the Anglican church or his Anglican church as an empire. He has wanted bsf there and has he been approached at least 4 times. He wasn't helpful when I wanted to start a kyb group and we don't have outside organizations using our factilites.

He has been there over 8 years. I expect other parishes are wanting him, and in the Anglican its usual for a clergy to stay no more than 10 years. There is a lot of gossip as to which clergy are 'good' -- that usualy means who can keep up the numbers and the money flow. The annual reports of each parish are published for the diocese in summary form. The clergy also gossip about parishes. We used to go to St. John's Blackburn that had a terrible reputation -- in my opinion is was a good little parish all the people wanted was good teaching and a minister who was not lazy.

Now Michele how long have you been at the same church.

# posted by Anonymous @ 3:23 am

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Sunday, October 17, 2004

Conservative and somewhat legalistic

Yep - my parents sure were conservative and rather legalistic. Take Sundays - we were not allowed to buy anything on a Sunday - even if the thermometer reached the top we weren't allowed to buy an icecream, and certainly not allowed to go to the beach or the pool on a Sunday. T.V. was also banned on a Sunday. Our shoes had to be cleaned on Saturday and if a button needed to be sewn on it had to be done before Sunday. Even to this day, mum won't crochet on a Sunday. I was determined that my kids would not have to go through what I did, and up to a certain extent they didn't. We were still classed as rather strict by other peoples standards, but much more tolerant. I always said when I was younger that I hoped I would undo the apron strings and let my kids go, and if I didn't have the sense to undo them, then that my kids would cut the apron strings themselves. It was a bit harder done in practice than theory tho'. I think we had a combination of undoing and cutting around the same time! I have a good relationship with each one of them and they share with me much more than I ever did with my mum. I get on with my mum now, we're good friends. That wasn't always so when I was a teenager and early 20's. My dad I just simply adored.
I mentioned earlier about having diversity in the church and how it is good for us as Christians. Gary has mentioned about so many small fellowships around and that it is not always good. I agree and yet disagree. Here's another quote from the book I quoted earlier.
"With so many churches everywhere, a Christian can shop around until he finds one that's totally compatible with his preferences and personality - robbing himself of a diverse environment and all its benefits. After all, Jesus Himself made this diversity a necessary part of following Him when He chose His team of disciples - and yet we go out of our way to prevent the very thing Jesus made compulsory."
Bear with me while I share another bit....
"There was astonishing diversity among the twelve apostles, the men God Himself personally handpicked to pass on the baton of Christianity to the rest of the world. United on the same team, for example, were Simon the Zealot - the anti-Roman fanatic - and Matthew, a committeed collaborator with the Romans. There was the impulsive Peter with his secure belief in himself and his ideas, joined together with the silent, cautious, hesitant Thomas, who easily doubted everything in life. There were the brothers James and John, the boisterous Sons of Thunder so preoccupied with rank and greatness that one wondered how the other ten could possibly endure them - and how those two ever endured each other.
Did not Jesus know that to put these twelve men together would be an almost unbearable test for everyone involved? Yes - of course He knew. And God used those strong individual differences as a tool to sharpen and define each of them into a well-balanced, insightful, effective church-planting missionary. They needed the push and pull of each other's differences. Their differences rubbed them like sandpaper until each of them finally shone like polished steel."

That old sandpaper hurts sometimes! Does with me anyway :)

# posted by shellymac @ 4:41 pm

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Yes Michele

Loved what you wrote and laughed about the hats business and your mother. Your parents were such conservatives, and I never was, while my mother was always the fashion conscious and with-it. My father didn't care, devoted to sport and still is. Oh he's a bore.

Yes there is something in small churches, and its important to be missionary conscious. At Holy Trinity, seven and a half per cent of all giving goes to the missionaries we support and a donations is given too to the student from Ridley we have each year. That's good. We also have a part-time counseller, and a part-time minister whose role is to do with the sick and funerals, then there's a part-time person to help the needy of the parish of area, we give a good amount of food. All that is good, on top of good teaching.

We are so involved that we will probably stay, but am annoyed at the Anglican church in total.

Had a blood test for haemochromatosis yesterday, (too much iron in the blood) would be funny if I had it, my father does.

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:15 am

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Saturday, October 16, 2004

Question

How do all you people manage to write in colour, italics etc. Whenever I try to do anything it gets lost!

# posted by shellymac @ 10:53 pm

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On hats, salaries and churches

This afternoon I wrote on the blog, then accidently hit the wrong button and lost the lot! So here goes again.
Hats - When I was growing up I had to wear a hat and gloves to church, it was very much the culture of the time but I didn't like it. As time went on, us kids kept putting pressure on our parents to change. I stopped wearing a hat around the age of 17. If I wore a hat to church now, I think the service would come to a halt out of shock. My mother kept wearing a hat for years and years until she was the only one wearing one in the entire church. One day she decided to join the majority and when she did, several women went up to her and thanked her for not wearing a hat as they had felt insuperior to her! In India it is still expected that women cover their heads and it is very much a cultural thing. The women drape their saris over their heads or wear a scarf. When we were in India I tried to keep my sari over my head but it just kept falling off and it was turning into a stressful event for me. I gave up and figured that being a westerner, the local people would accept me turning up in western attire - which they did.
One of my favourite books is called "The Wisdon Hunter" by Randall Arthur. It is a novel on the trials and journey of a Pastor, but boy, have I learnt alot from it. I first read it two years ago and by reading it, I have had my own beliefs and ideas challenged. I have been quite intolerant of many things over the years, but I have now learned to be much more tolerant and less judgemental. Let me quote one of the many parts of the book that I've highlighted.
"I want all of us to ask ourselves a question: If Christianity is present in a country for a long time, and becomes tightly intertwined with the culture, is it possible that Christianity in that country could become more defined by the culture's qualities than by the actual teachings of the Bible?"
Salaries - Oct 10th made 22 years since Wilf and I came to this Church in the barren north-west. Because we are not in the main stream denominations the Salary is much lower. Of course we get the house thrown in (such as it is!), and some very small allowances. We have our own phone line and a separate line for the church. I initiated that move as I would get so stressed when the phone bill would come and the treasurer could see how many times I rang my mum in Traralgon etc. (A move I would recommend to anyone in a similar situation.) We have a friend who is an Anglican Minister and he is on a good wicket so to speak - but mention evangelism to him and he gets angry and just like to parade around in his robes etc. I would rather have less money and be true to God's Word. Anyway - there's no way we would have stuck it out here if we weren't sure that this was where God wanted us - it sure ain't for the money!
Churches - Our church was a break away from the Church of Christ 60 years ago next year. That's before I was a twinkle in my mothers eye. A bunch of people in the church were saved at the same time and they wanted to 'spread the word'. So there began our little church. (Some of the founding members are still here!) Over the years there have been many missionaries sent out and supported financially from the church. The first time we came here I was 8 1/2 months pregnant with two little kids - 2 & 4. Wilf preached and I slung my guitar over my protruding tummy and sang. We had no idea that they were looking for a Pastor at the time. We would just go wherever we were asked to. I remember though, finding out where the Church met and was told it met in the local school. When I got off the 'phone I told Wilf that it was one of 'those weird groups' - little realising that we would end up here. Anyway - we're not all that weird!! But then again I think I'm slightly weird - so may be we are! Although it is not a big church, it is a caring church and much has been done over the years in counselling, guiding, helping and just being there for people. Wilf and I have had much to do with drug addicts even to the extent of having three guys spaced out on heroin in our lounge room, bailing out another guy, having him stay with us, and another time living in our old holden in the front drive way. I could go on and on - but we know that the Lord has had His hand on us through it all.
We have many nationalities in the church which makes for interesting times. Let me give another quote from the book - "We are learning that the diversity of nationality, the diversity of culture, and the diversity of background in the same church is good. Diversity makes you think. On the other hand, uniformity in a church destroys one's need for thinking. Diversity forces you to ask questions. Uniformity lets you harden in your wrong beliefs." (I'm so glad that there are people who can express things so well - that goes for songs too - I'm pretty pathetic in trying to say what I want)
So Gary - don't get too disappointed in the church - use it in a positive way! :)

# posted by shellymac @ 10:13 pm

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This week

Well in the time after the election, both Howard and Costello are quick to muse that not all the promises can be kept, the economy might be going down, re the price of oil. Fancy them working that one out after the election, but not before. Honest people they are. I thought it was raining money the way it was being promised.

The Anglican church continues to be an embarassment. The Sydney people are an intollerent lot, (proven in the synod), and it seems, not beyond creating some publicity of the wrong kind. I wonder what sizeable egos are involved.

And Michele tells us how badly off the familes of clergy are. From my experience as a church treasurer I know that they take a fairly low salary (because that is taxed) and allowances in the thousands -- books, phone, car, entertainment, conferences, travel, house provided. And what do they tell us, the church needs more of our money.

Sorry Michele if this is not the case in your church, I'm not a happy person with the church at the moment.

I have no trouble with women clergy, teachers or bishops.. So some people can read the bible and forget it was written to the culture of the day. Should women wear hats or scarves to church?

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:29 am

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Friday, October 15, 2004

Melbourne Weather

My guess is, it's a little like Christchurch (only hotter). True, sometimes we get quite remarkable extremes in one day. The classic is the "cool change", where we can be sweltering in 40+ temperatures for quite some time (maybe days), then with a puff of wind, plummet to a very refreshing 20 or so.

Autumn in Melbourne is near-perfect; very stable sunny days, mid-20's and we do get autumn colours (unlike much of Australia). Out hot is actually much hotter than Sydney, and they are much wetter. Tasmania is much worse!

Perth probably has the best climate - a Pommy friend of ours described it as having the climate the Californians boast about.

Interestingly, Melbourne is regarded along with Vienna and Vancouver as being the world's "most livable" cities. I am off to Vienna tomorrow (my work takes me there twice each year). Not bad, having to live and work in two of the three (I've never been to Vancouver).

# posted by geoff @ 9:23 am

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Thursday, October 14, 2004

Melbourne

Hi there you Melbournites!

My sister and husband went there last weekend for their wedding anniversary. They said it was freezing cold one day and 30 degrees the next day!!!!!!! They said a couple they know, left and moved to another city because they couldn't take the four seasons change in one day which happened "all the time"!

So.... is all this true??? Do you guys have this weather thing happening??

Carol
from hot Christchurch today!
Could be freezing cold tomorrow though:))

# posted by Caroline @ 9:13 am

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Wednesday, October 13, 2004

Today's Blessings

Michele, appreciated the wisdom in your post. In regard to those who feel Christians today should be blessed with wealth and perfect health, it's interesting what Jesus said about blessings which I think are what we can look forward to in this NT age of grace:

In Matthew ch.5:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted...

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

Not exactly what most people think of as "blessings" today, but that's what Jesus promises as blessings for his people on earth today. Am I satisfied? Do I count them as true blessing? Do I rejoice (as he said)???

I don't know anywhere where universal blessing of wealth is promised for NT believers (we may receive such a blessing, but I suspect it's only to those who have proved faithful in handling natural wealth). Whereas in the OT, I think God's blessing often manifested itself in material wealth - lots of cattle, herds, lands, flocks, wives! (had to throw that one in!)

Good attitude that the disciples had in Acts (ch.5) when they suffered persecution "rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name."

They recognised real blessing.

Appreciated your encouraging comments about Joseph too.

# posted by geoff @ 10:38 am

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Tuesday, October 12, 2004

Politics and Christians

Politics really don't interest me all that much - mainly because I don't understand alot of it. But hopefully the "Family First" party will have some positive input. Unfortunately we have seen too many people suffer from the prosperity gospel angle - so hopefully this guy doesn't follow that way of thinking.
We just recently had a guy in our church (who didn't last long with us as he thought that our minds were blinded) who said and wrote me heaps of letters that Jesus was rich, and we should be rich. We should never be sick, etc etc. Wilf (my husband - he's a Pastor)gets only $19,000 a year, and we have experienced first hand the Lord's enabling. We have been in the same church for 22 years now. We have never gone hungry, and our kids were clothed in second hand clothes for years that would be given to us (by the way - some of the clothes you wouldn't give your dog to sleep on! we have to be careful when we give things to people in need - nobody wants to feel like a pauper!) How do these people justify saying that Christians should never be poor? My brother-in-law is in full time ministry in India as is my sister-in-law. They have no money at all. We visited them in 1985 (on a shoe string - it really was a miracle that we got there really) and along with my father there were seven of us visiting. Our kids at the time were 1, 3, 5, & 7. We stayed in two rooms with George & Rose and their four kids!(in New Delhi)They certainly weren't rich and their whole lives have been in Christian ministry. My sister-in-law was in Madras at the time and they were also as poor as church mice. But the christian fellowship with these wonderful people was more than I have ever experienced in Australia.
Back to Christians in politics - I just hang on to the example of Joseph in the Bible. He served in the courts of Pharoah - God enabled him to keep honest in his position along with being true to his faith.
By the way - I didn't vote for Howard or Latham!

# posted by shellymac @ 6:56 pm

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Thanks

Enjoyed your thoughts on Election Day, Geoff.

To my unpolitical brain, they taught me a few things.

Sure that wasn't me who was on the cell phone ringing my Dad to ask who to vote for?

# posted by Caroline @ 8:16 am

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Some nice lines

When God measures a man, He puts the tape around the heart instead of the head.

The grass may look greener on the other side, but it still has to be mowed.

Those who deserve Love the least need it the most.

When things go wrong, don’t go wrong with them.

You master your enemies not by force but by forgiveness.

Good manners sometimes means simply putting up with other peoples bad manners.

The company you keep will determine the trouble you meet.

Swallowing angry words before you say them is better than having to eat them afterwards.

Kindness is a language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see.

The right train of thought can take you to a better station in life.

Patience is the ability to keep your motor idling when you feel like stripping your gears.

It is good to remember that the tea kettle, although up to it's neck in hot water, continues to sing.

Falling down doesn't’t make you a failure, but staying down does.

God can heal a broken heart, but he has to have all the pieces.

Be more concerned with what God thinks about you than what people think about you.

When you flee temptations don’t leave a forwarding address.

A coincidence is a small miracle when God prefers to remain anonymous.

The teacher asked the pupils to tell the meaning of loving-kindness. A little boy jumped up and said, “Well, if I was hungry and someone gave me a piece of bread that would be kindness. But if they put a little jam on it, that would be loving-kindness.”

Others can stop you temporarily –you are the only once who can do it permanently.

I’ve never seen a smiling face that was not beautiful.

Don’t be afraid to go out on a limb. That’s where the fruit is.

People often admit to a bad memory but never to bad judgement.

# posted by Caroline @ 8:14 am

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Monday, October 11, 2004

AOG may hold power in Senate

A Mr Steve Fielding who attends an AOG church in Melbourne, and got 1.9% of the primary Senate vote, may end up holding the balance of power in the Senate. This would make him, and the "Family First" so-called Christian party he represents, immensely powerful (effectively they would hold the gov't of John Howard over a barrel on every controversial bill).

I just hope that Mr Fielding is a genuine, caring Christian. Even so, to balance Christian principles and politics will be extremely difficult on many issues. And as I'm in the offensive mood, there are some AOG attendees who it seems to me give high priority to the two m's - money and me!

The prosperity gospel often seems their preferred message.

# posted by geoff @ 5:19 pm

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Anglican Politics

Nearly forgot this one - the Anglican church made the right decision last week! (at least, according to Michelle and me).

A letter in the Age on the subject:

L. McInerney asks, quite reasonably, what attributes and qualities are required for leadership within the church. Among the check lists in the bible, you'll find "husband of but one wife". Which might be a bit tricky for the ladies.

Letter was by a woman from NSW.

# posted by geoff @ 5:12 pm

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BSF Politics

I was unable to attend the weekend's BSF retreat (boo hoo) due to election duties. But the whisper is that the whole Board (a lot of Very Important Men from the US of A) is here, that this is most unusual, and that they are checking out our leader with a view to a significant announcement. Now, our blog had a spy at the retreat, and in due course he will no doubt add fuel to this rumour...

BTW, the Board will be at our classes tonight, so we'll check them out too!

# posted by geoff @ 5:07 pm

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There's No Accounting for Taste!

(or utopia on hold in Oz)

Probably going to offend half of us here, but I'm truly sorry if that's the case - one of my mates summed up the weekend disaster "it's un-Australian"! Sadly, it's not. If any trait defines a nation, the defining trait of Oz right now is the two m's, money and me. Or less delicately, greed and self-interest. Another of my matettes described her feelings as suicidal, and that she would be ashamed to 'fess up to being Australian just now.

So, why would the majority of this nation not just re-elect a habitually lying PM who took this country into an unethical war without UN approval, and locks up refugees and refugee children in inhospitable places; but re-elect him with a whopping majority?

Presumably because they are quite happy to be bought (they are not so stupid to not realise the pork-barrelling going on, rather they apparently appreciate it).

So gov't schools, the disadvantaged and the public hospital system didn't rate highly with voters as they cast their votes for John Howard on Saturday, what did matter it seems was that they are personally comfortable and what happens elsewhere, or in Iraq, isn't of great concern.

Vision? Apart from self-interest, none there. Honesty? Who cares. Compassion in gov't? Nope.

The caring side lost. Badly.

I manage a polling booth, and for one whole day maintain absolute impartiality. The very very model of neutrality, actually! We have a lady on staff, who made the comment upon John Howard's first win "there's no accounting for taste!" Looking glum, she repeated the comment Saturday night as we counted the votes.

One 18 year-old, voting for the first time, was surprised to be handed a second, huge white Senate ballot paper. Obviously she'd got the small one for the House of Rep's sorted out, but having to fill in a second Senate one threw her. She was seen walking to the voting screen to fill in her votes, making a quick mobile phone call. When in doubt, call a friend!

And as my matette reminded me this morning, someone said "The true measure of a nation's greatness is gauged by their attention to the most vulnerable among them: the child, the widow and the orphan, the stranger within the gate and the destitute." By this yardstick, Australian society right now is pretty insignificant.

Gary, are you offended?

# posted by geoff @ 4:58 pm

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Sunday, October 10, 2004

Michele's brother, and Paul Barker

Ha, so Garry (he spells it wrong) has no trouble with the big bang. The only thing really I can remember about him, is that he and Roger were so confident, and like all your friends and family conservative. I always has a more expansive outlook.

Paul spoke on Solomon this morning and to me, he threw new ideas around in a good quantity. By the way, you who know the bible is absolutely literally true, was Solomon really going to cut the baby in two (1 K ch 3), or was he testing the women and putting wisdom into action.

I think we are being tested often. Its why living is not easy.

By the way again, while Michele's brothers were so confident, she wasn't; she and I were the shyest people in creation, well almost. If I remember right, I only ever spoke to her when she was in a group of people.

Reminder; we were in YFC together 35 years ago.

Alas I'm old! Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 1:06 pm

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Saturday, October 09, 2004

Quote

If you look at zero you see nothing; but look through it and you will see the world.

Robert Kaplan

# posted by Caroline @ 8:50 pm

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Friday, October 08, 2004

God's Love and the Big Bang!

Carol - thanks for the story about God's Love. Sometimes it can be the most simple story that makes the most sense. I might print it out and we can use it in our Church Bulletin.

The following comments are in this months Reader's Digest in response to the August Edition - "How to Make A Universe"

"How can anyone believe that from an infinitesimal dot billions of times smaller than the tip of a pin, an explosion occurred that produced the universe with its multiple billions of tonnes of rocks in the planets? That's after you squeeze 27 tonnes of stuff into a nonexistent dot. Are we really going to swallow such superlative nonsense? I'd rather accept the sublime statement in Genesis 1:1 - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Stuart Leigh, Bentleigh, Victoria.

and

"Bill Bryson took us on a fun thought-provoking escapade through the ideas of our origins. Yes, there is intricacy, order, design, balance and beauty in the universe - but tip it a little and things will go askew.
Consider new life, the body's healing power and the constancy of nature. How can we account for this? A Big Bang accident? No way! God made it all on purpose, with a relationship with His created beings in mind. He made us, and loves and cares for us. Without this vital ingredient, life is meaningless." Alan Silverwood, Heathmont, Victoria.

Now last night I had the evening meal with my brother Garry in Traralgon. We got onto this topic, and it got quite heated for awhile. The end result - sort of - was that he believes in the Big Bang - but that it was God Who ordered it. Whereas, the nonbeliever takes God out of the equasion. God Who is sovereign, can use any means to create something. We so often get tied down with these issues of creation - big bang- and so on, when we should be focussing on Christ. Garry reckons that when he gets to heaven he's going to ask God how He created the world, and God will answer him by saying 'with a Big bang of course!'

# posted by shellymac @ 9:40 am

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Gods love as opposed to our love

I saw this on a message board and thought that seeing we had been discussing divine love earlier, this fitted in nicely. Actually, it is a beautiful little story in my eyes!
Carol:)

Herein Is Love

A gentleman who was a professed Christian was taken seriously ill. He became troubled about the little love he felt in his heart for God, and spoke of his experience to a friend.

This is how the friend answered him: “When I go home from here, I expect to take my baby on my knee, look into her sweet eyes, listen to her charming prattle, and tired as I am, her presence will rest me; for I love that child with unutterable tenderness. But she loves me little. If my heart were breaking, it would not disturb her sleep. If my body were racked with pain, it would not interrupt her play. If I were dead, she would forget me in a few days. Besides this, she has never brought me a penny, but is a constant expense to me. I am not rich, but there is not enough money in the world to buy my baby. How is it? Does she love me, or do I love her? Do I withhold my love until I know she loves me? Am I waiting for her to do something worthy of my love before extending it?”

This practical illustration of the love of God for His children caused the tears to roll down the sick man’s face. “Oh, I see,” he explained, “it is not my love to God, but God’s love for me, of which I should be thinking. And I do love Him now as I never loved Him before.”

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us.” (I John 4:10)

unknown

# posted by Caroline @ 6:21 am

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Sunday, October 03, 2004

Photos

Has anyone seen my photos on Yahoo? (I need some e-mail addresses if you haven't been given a link). There are 2 pics of 30 years ago. Is anyone else going to do it?

I recommend Yahoo. Start by making a yahoo e-mail address, good for taking spam,
then go to Photos, click on create, and create an album which i think will take about 55 photos, get the easy upload tool to drag and drop from your My Photos section, its all easy enough.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:57 am

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Witnessing part 1

Well Carol, people get into the taxi and there are trips of different lengths, different types of people but a lot of them can talk about the weather to an enormous extent, (and to elederly women is seems to be so important).
I usually ask about people's weekend, the one past and/or the one coming and tell theem that I go to church. There are all sorts of conversations that follow, from some of interest to what I experience and to the other extreme of expressing stupidity, (I have never really experienced hostility). There is a lot of indifference, clearly of the likeness to: 'oh you have milk in your coffeee I don't'. There is a feeling among some people of hostility to the church but little is said directly.

In Australia today the church is under attack and it is based on what is within, people who are fallible. This week of the people 60 or so arrested for child pornography, 3 are in the news, a child care centre owner, an Anglican minister, and a teacher at a RC school. Attacks on the people in the church in the media, and some parts of the public, are frequent.

The church is hard to defend. Its quaint and inefficient and clearly in some jobs has the wrong people.

Here's and exercise: work out from your home, on a quiet Sunday morning, driving for 12 minutes, how many churches could you get to?

I couldn't do it, I can't count that far. Yes, I live right in the 'bible belt' of the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. Michele lives in the less believing north-west, (you might argue with me on that one), how many could you get to? Are there not two churches in the same street?

Why don't you unite? Why don't the 3 Anglican churches in Blackburn unite? Or the 3 in Box Hill, or the 2 in Doncaster East, or the 2 in Balwyn, or ......

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:19 am

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Saturday, October 02, 2004

What a night!!

Wow, what a night we have had tonight. The church was packed as we listened to a young girl give her moving testimony of how the Lord has sustained her through several near death experiences. And Nick! What can I say. This young man who has no limbs, has to be the tallest man I know. What an inspiration to us all collectively and individually. How he hangs on to the Word of God and relies on Christ to help him through each day is just wonderful. He is coming again on Wednesday night and I'm hoping that there will be a few of my work buddies there as well. Please remember to pray for this meeting guys - thanks

# posted by shellymac @ 10:24 pm

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Cricket Widow

Yep - you're right - Wilf loves his cricket. India hasn't done too well of late tho'. We went to the World Cup Final a few years back between England and Pakistan. We joined the Pakistan side and WON! We went this last time between India and Australia - pretty sad for India. I remember watching you play cricket at Warragul Gary - I think you were described as a medium pace left arm bowler!.

# posted by shellymac @ 5:25 pm

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What a good laugh!!

Carol - thanks for talking about The Terminal. We went last night - first to Airport West as it is cheaper but found there was a three hour wait so took off to Highpoint and sat down with one minute remaining. I haven't laughed so much for a long time. Wilf just had a smile but I was roaring with laughter. I even had tears running down my cheeks. My favourite bit? Gupta entertaining at dinner!! Tom Hanks is one of the best actors around. Geoff - Catherine Zeta-Jones looked stunning (as usual).
Sorry that you're sick Gary - keep on looking up! Sometimes God lays us aside to have some 'time out'. Hope you're up and at it again soon. It must have been all those passengers coughing all over you. At my work (medical receptionist) people cough right in your face without even saying sorry. Our boss pays for the Flu injection each year for all the staff.
I've got some photos of school days - but oh, the skinny knees and self consciousness! I've only got a few pics of the TAF & YFC days - none with you in them though. I've got one of me having a piggy back on Graeme Sharman so that I didn't fall into the sea getting out of the boat - poor guy. We had a reunion about 18 years ago - time we had another one.
Tonight we are having a special meeting with Nick Vujicic. He is 21 years old and was born without arms and legs. He came to our church a few months back, and generally doesn't go back to the same church as he wants to reach as many people as he can. But he is coming tonight (Saturday) as well as on Wednesday night. What an inspiration he is. You may want to look him up on the net at www.lifewithoutlimbs.org I think I have it bad when my shoes hurt -after meeting Nick I have a different perspective on life.

# posted by shellymac @ 4:22 pm

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Gary

The Terminal is at the movies still in NZ ..... not sure if Australia is months ahead or about the same?? The USA is about 6 mths ahead of us in most of their films.

Gary, do you ever have meaningful conversations with passengers in your driving? Just curious.

# posted by Caroline @ 3:30 pm

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Still alive and in pain

I want written on my tombstone "I should have told you I was sick", almost the same as Spike Milligan's. Alas at my house to admit to being sick is to make matters worse, Shirley is the terrorist of home medications. I wish she would leave me alone, to be miserable with a big glass of sherry. The pain is because the first tablets for the day are running out and more are needed soon. I feel that I'm a fraction better.

Its not all bad: I'm living on icecream, yoghurt and dohnuts, alcohol too.

Is the Terminal on vhs or dvd?

Geoff and Michele, do I need a laugh after the distaster of the mighty Brisbane Lions grand final and later. Well its not a real disaster, but now there's not much happening. Michele I suppose you old man is a cricket fanatic. He can be if he wants to; I think in sport we see some people using their God given skilled to an amazing extent. I was never much good at sport, probably best at soccer, and played in two premiership teams in Warrnambool. Ah, long ago. Michele do you still have your school dress from Drouin High School, or any photos of that era. I can't remember anyone taking photos when we were in YFC.

I related to all that Carol just wrote. I thank God every day for my good health, even this infection is not bad, in the taxi I often see some people doing it tough, very tough, some of them.

Time for tablets and icecream. Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 2:17 pm

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Michelle and Gary

Hi Michelle,
I look forward to your report on The Terminal.

I do hope it is as funny for you as I cracked it up to be. My husband always says I must never crack anything up to be too good as it can be a let down for people! My enthusiastic nature is such that I like to give credit where credit is due! HIS nature, is more calm and middle of the line! I rest my case:)

Gary, do hope you are ok.

I remember once when I went through a patch where I loved life so much that even though I wasn't afraid of dying, I felt so disappointed that we have to leave this wonderful life. What got me the most was nature and all its glories and I would feel so drawn IN to the beautiful trees, parks, and all nature.

Well, then I got sick for about 2 weeks with excessively bad influenza. I knew afterwards that God arranged this (or perhaps used it!) , as I have almost never had sickness in my life (before nor since), especially that long and hard.

But I remember lying in bed after days of feeling ill, and someone opened the curtains and outside was a most gorgeous day. We had a one acre garden then, which had been extensively landscaped and was VERY beautiful. Our bedroom looked out onto a beautiful part of this. I gazed out on this and felt absolutely NO stirring of beauty as I ALWAYS felt when looking outside onto this view. I remember trying to feel the beauty affect me. But nothing doing!

And then it hit me..... God was showing me that I CAN leave the earths beauty and that my appreciation for it was still only appealing to my carnal mind and heart, and that when one day I do leave, I will only be going to greater happiness and HOME.

Funny how just after that happened, I immediately started improving in health. I know God was in that experience! Since then, I still get the same stirring of heart at beautiful nature, but know now with certainty that what comes next will make even the most beautiful on this earth pale into the background.

# posted by Caroline @ 8:13 am

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Friday, October 01, 2004

Surviving

It does me good to be sick sometimes, I slow down, rest more and know that with God's blessings doctors know how to treat the infection that I have. I also know that with God's blessings some people know how he created the universe, and even what existed before the 'big bang'.
Being sick, (I'll be over it in two or three days), has distracted me from the 'super promises election', but I can't find many promises for the poor and the needy, expecially the needy in the third world. The Latham Medicare Gold seems full of difficulties but its a vision for looking after what is mostly a needy group and there will be good flow ons to other groups in health care.
I'm voting for those who show more care, I know it will only be a little more than the other side, but ... The greedy will outnumber the needy (that's a short version of a famous quote) so Howard will win.

# posted by Anonymous @ 8:24 pm

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The Terminal

Carol - you've talked me into taking my husband to see The Terminal tonight!! Will let you know how we liked it :)

# posted by shellymac @ 5:23 pm

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