God Spot

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God Spot
This Christian Resource Blog has been created by a group of friends from around the world. Our purpose is to provide links to useful resources, some commentary on topical or doctrinal issues, a place where anyone can come with questions and a means whereby we can share our faith. And above all, to grow and encourage each other. As Christians, we believe we bear God's image in this world, and seek to glorify God's name in this endeavour. Any Christian who wants to join with us is very welcome!

Wednesday, August 31, 2005

more on bsf

I quite enjoyed the first part of bsf Monday night, the discussion group. David is a good leader and the answers from the guys were interesting. Alas the lecture from the teaching leader, well, it was worse than boring. And there was 40 minutes of it, (its less for the fellows than the women, Michele). That guy is so colourless, does he wear a suit to do the gardening?

By the way, the mighty Melbourne Storm ran over those sub-humans from Balmain, and I'm going down in the world with St. Johns, going to the AFL match on Saturday afternoon. I better pray again for your team. And you talked me into going back to bsf.

Hank I haven't got an answer to your questions, but someone will say its part of the Jews returning home as prophesied. No, its just the right thing to do, to stop stealing the Arabs land.

best wishes from Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:36 pm

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Tuesday, August 30, 2005

BSF

Over the years I have tried on two occasions to attend BSF. I lasted several weeks each time, the second time shorter than the first.

Now I find myself going again! I was asked by two separate girls at church and I stood fast and said 'NO'. I was asked by a third girl not from our Church and I found myself saying 'yes'.

I am now asking myself 'Why on earth did I say Yes?'.

Don't get me wrong - BSF is a great study guide. But small groups are not my thing, AND sitting on that hard narrow upright pew for 55 minutes of lecture gets rather trying!

I've found out that our group is relocating to Swanston St Church of Christ when the studies on Ruth begin. I think it will cut out the housewives and young mothers that go. I for one will not be attending. But I've heard that the men's group will be starting over here with the Studies on Ruth.

Hmm - are we getting booted out so the men can use the building?

Is this a case of Male dominance???

Enough said ......

# posted by shellymac @ 5:51 pm

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Different Views

There was a time when I would get 'hot under the collar' with people who didn't think the same as I do when it comes to Eschatology. But hopefully I am maturing and have come to an understanding that we can have differing opinions and still have fellowship one with another.

I believe in the Pre-Mill view with a touch of "Pan" thrown in. My Old testament lecturer believed in the A-Mill view and we would have some lively discussions about it. I do remember having a dream when I was in M.B.I. (centuries ago) that the Lord had returned and was waiting for everyone to come to Him in a big tent and I was running along next to my lecturer trying to jump up to get raptured and he turned to me and said 'I told you so!'. I told him about the dream the next day and we had a good laugh.

The A-Mill view to me is also quite believable (probably more so than the Pre-Mill to the 'uneducated') but I can't come at the question of the tribulation. There is yet to come the Great Tribulation of which the world has never seen nor experienced anything more horrific, and I know of A-Mills who believe that we are in the "Great Tribulation" now.

I like Geoff's closing statement:-
But whether we believe X=A, Pre, Pan, whatever, I imagine the end-times message we could all agree on, loud and crystal clear from scripture, is the call to persevere, times will be tough, there will be falling away. Thus, Jesus calls us to endure in faith! And to cry from our hearts "Come, Lord Jesus".

Amen!!

# posted by shellymac @ 5:37 pm

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Saturday, August 27, 2005

Really Geoff

Now (according to the Letter from Gary) :
'Where two or three are gathered together and they are Christians then you will have a theological argument'. Stop trying to take Revelation literally, look up for the Lord's return.
There is one exception to Gary's view. That you will know Geoffery, "If they are BSF people, they will and must believe absolutely what the BSF Manual tells them'.

I'm not sure that I liked going to BSF last week. I came in late, and people made a fuss over me not letting me slip in quietly and not interrupt the proceedings. And three maybe four people told me I should be a leader again. Geoffery may I puch Jensen Low's head in next week. Why isn't he a leader again? He can have my place, what place. Would Grant have me back a leader again -- no!

And doing the questions. I sat down doing the questions and the first one was 'write down 4 things Paul says in verses 3 and 4' really! we all have left primary school. Then 2 questions on was something about the differences between Gods will, our knowlege, His knowledge, and wisdom -- high powered theology and too difficult for me. And I was given 6 square centimetres to write my hopeless answer in.

Geoffery may I give up this week.

I'll pray for your hopeless football team. I'm going to the rugby this afternoon -- real men there!

blessings from Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:09 am

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Monday, August 22, 2005

X-Mil???

Whichever view we hold, and thanks Michele for your succinct summary (I learnt heaps), I like a friend of mine's comment about end-time beliefs: I don't believe there is anyone on the planet whose opinions are more than that - their opinion.

This same friend says:
I think the more common pre-millenial position is simply due to it being the most straightforward interpretation in Rev 20 in conjunction with a number of other Scriptures. I also think Rev 14:14-16 is too easily overlooked.

I find the amillenial position (ie. that we are NOW in the millenium) extremely difficult to reconcile with the passage in Rev 20.1-10

For instance, do the A-Mil's amongst us believe that Satan was bound when he was cast down from heaven (ref. Rev12.9), and that he hasn't been persecuting the church for these past couple of thousand years??

I note the A-Mil position seems standard Anglican theology, downunder in Oz anyway (what about in UK?).

But whether we believe X=A, Pre, Pan, whatever, I imagine the end-times message we could all agree on, loud and crystal clear from scripture, is the call to persevere, times will be tough, there will be falling away. Thus, Jesus calls us to endure in faith! And to cry from our hearts "Come, Lord Jesus".

# posted by geoff @ 12:35 pm

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Thursday, August 18, 2005

A Mil is right

Now Michele's descriptions was rather good --

This is the day of tribulation, the church is under persecution, physically in some places, intellectually in others. Some of it is by the church's own doing being so divided, arguing and differing. If 'disunity is death' in politics is close to it in religion too.

Satan was 'bound' limited by the Lord's death, and also Michele, but the baptism of believers.

Some people are that simple that they have literal interpretations of the scriptures which are translations from other languages. (Do all words and expressions translate easily and accurately?) And Revelations starts by telling us its a vision.

Heaven will immediately follow the Lord's return, judgement will be quick for believers and non-believers are known to God, and there will be re-established the perfect world -- garden and city of amazing beauty and of harmony, (the lion will rest with the lamb for they both will eat vegetation as in Genesis). There is no 1,000 years business before some of it happens.

The traditionalists will keep looking at the ground for the horsemen to ride by, I'll look to the sky where Jesus will be seen first when he returns.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 8:13 pm

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Tuesday, August 16, 2005

You asked for it Geoff!

Sorry guys - but there is no 'short' way to go about all these views.
Pre-Millennialism
Pre-Mill's believe in the literal and historical interpretation of the Scripture unless where the symbolism is evident.
They believe that the Church will be raptured to meet Christ in the air and are taken to Heaven where there will be the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. The Church will be the bride, the Lord the bridegroom and the Old testament saints will be the spectators of the Marriage Supper. Before the Supper, we will be before the Judgement seat of Christ, where we will not be judged for salvation but for what we have done for the Lord during our lives. (our works/motives/faithfulness)
They believe that during this time - here on earth there will be 3 1/2 years of Tribulation, followed by 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation. The false prophet and the Antichrist will be ruling during this time, powered by Satan himself.
Pre-Mill's believe that at the completion of these 7 years-at the Battle of Armageddon, Christ will descend bringing with Him the Raptured Church, and He will set up His Kingdom here on earth for 1000 years.
After this will be the Great White Throne Judgment for the unbelievers. Satan will be thrown into the bottomless pit along with his demons and all those who have rejected Jesus Christ.
The Old heaven and Old Earth will pass away and the New Heaven (Jerusalem) and the New Earth will come into being for Eternity.

A-Millennialism
Some A-Mill's believe that we are living in the day of tribulation at present.
A-Mill's do not believe in a literal kingdom on the earth followed by the 2nd coming of Christ.
They tend to Spiritualize and allegorize the prophecies concerning the Millennium and attribute yet un-fulfilled prophecies relating to Israel to the Church instead.
They believe that Satan was bound at Christ's first appearance on earth 2,000 years ago.
A-Mill's are divided as to whether the millennium is being spiritually fulfilled on earth or whether it's being fulfilled by the saints in heaven.
Eternity - heaven will immediately follow the 2nd coming of Christ.
A-Mill's do not believe in a simple and plain literal interpretation of Scripture because they tend to spirtualize everything - and this could differ from person to person.

Post-Millennialism
Post-Mill's believe that the world will continue to get better and better until the entire world is Christianized, at which time Christ will return to a kingdom already flourishing in peace.
This view was popular at the beginning of the 20th century but was eliminated as a result of WW1 & WW2, the Great Depression and the overwhelming escalation of moral evil in society. Many who held the Post-Mill view have adopted the A-Mill position.

Pan-Millenialism
They seem not to hold on to any view but believe that it will "all pan out in the end"!

If you were confused before reading this, then I guess you might be more confused now!

# posted by shellymac @ 8:04 pm

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Friday, August 12, 2005

Living right by the Scriptures

Here is the definitive verse, folks, take this in Shawn!

'Go eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favours what you do.'
Eccles. ch. 9 v 7

May I suggest that 'gladness' means appreciation of what God provides. And wine is ok, but not drunkedness!

Comments.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:11 pm

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Wednesday, August 10, 2005

right, wrong and the truth

Amazed there are 6 things before I find my last one. Anyway I shirked a discussion about right and wrong and living the Christian life the other night.

I was 'in the dumps a bit'. I have to turn down a nursing course for reasons of money. I will say 'no' to the place tomorrow, and go on seeing about a lesser course and working the way up. 'You can't always have what you want' is the title of a Rolling Stones song; not quite in the Scriputres, but there are words of comfort about all things working for good ...........

Women topless, fine by me, may be a bit cold or painful with sunburn at the beach. In the perfect state Adam and Eve were naked and its certainly ok between married people, but although I don't take too much detail from Revelation, in the New Jerusalem we will have clothes of some sort. Yes Shawn!

I agree with Michele that faith in Jesus is about believing, but that faith is expressed in words, beliefs and actions: actions I think mean a number of things including regular church attendance, (its good for us and support for others), by hospitality and doing charitable works. The word 'works' occurs in the NT a lot, and is an outcome of faith.

I can't look back but someone said we have to work out right and wrong to some extent. I agreee but in working out right and wrong we need to base it on the Scripture and maybe consulted some learned authorities, our pastor just might know something. I'll er think about the Bob Dylan line "Don't worry kid they keep it all hid". Does anyone feel I have a love/hate feeling to the clergy? Ha.

blessings Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:49 pm

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Tuesday, August 09, 2005

Re: Topless??

It's only men's perverted obsessions that require man's laws to say that a woman being topless is nudity when a man being topless is not. Double standards are hypocrisy.

and

Oh boy!....I ain't goin near this one.......

I think this is simply male wishful thinking, Michele!!! (and I've resisted the strong urge to attach an appropriate pic to this post!)

# posted by geoff @ 12:45 pm

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Left Behind - Michele (not really!)

Interesting how our minds work as kids, Michele (your comment about coming home to an empty house and wondering were you "left behind"!!). I remember sitting in an old school room, must have been about 5th June 1967, Israel had just launched a massive attack on the Arabs, and looking out the window at the most ominous and threatening dark storm approaching, and thinking to myself "this could be it, the end of the world"!

Your comment: "But on the other hand, I'm not so 'one-eyed' as to think that a person who doesn't believe or interpret the meanings of Revelation the same as I do, that they are lost!" is just as well, or we wouldn't be meeting up with Gary in heaven... :-))

And can you please give me your understanding of what "a-mill" and "post-mill" mean - I'm struggling to work them out.

BTW I liked this bit of background to Revelation that I once heard from Paul Barker:

The purpose of Rev is to stir up perseverance in faith, especially in face of opposition, and it does this by taking us into the control room. Who is in charge? Who rules on the throne? God, the real authority. What matters most is not SEEING but hearing and heeding God. In Rev we don't get a picture of God (we are to avoid the temptation to make any image like God).

And your last point But this quote: "The Left Behind books miss the point that Christ already has the victory!" I don't agree with and wonder if this lady has read all the books, because Christ is certainly lifted up and 'Yes' He already does has the victory, but there are still many days of prophecy to be fulfilled.

Interesting comment of yours Michele, I gathered that the lady had read all the books, so obviously one's view is clouded or coloured by one's preconceptions (as is our reading of scripture on eschatalogical matters, I suspect). I will accept your reading of this!! (thanks)

# posted by geoff @ 12:09 pm

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Monday, August 08, 2005

Topless??

Oh boy!....I ain't goin near this one.......

# posted by shellymac @ 8:24 pm

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Going to Church

Why can't active faith be "oh, yes I believe but I never bother to go to church"? There's lots of folks thinking they are get'n into the New Jerusalem through willful acts of disobedience to God's revealed will, so why can't they get in if they don't go to church?
Going or not going to Church will not make any difference in entering heaven. The importance is that we acknowledge that Christ is the Messiah and accept Him into our lives. BUT going to church I believe is important in our Christian walk. The Scriptures encourage us to meet together and read and study the Word. We are not to be isolated in our Christian faith. If we isolate ourselves, then we will find ourselves becoming 'luke warm'. We need Christian fellowship, we need to be accountable to other Christians, we need to discuss, listen, learn and grow.

"living rightly in a pagan world" We are to be witnesses to those around us. In our actions, words and daily living. Culture can play a huge part in this. I was brought up not to drink alchohol. I know true believing Christians who see nothing wrong with it. I was brought up never to wear slacks (I wear jeans alot now-a-days), and there were many other 'regulations' that I had to live by. But - are these things important? I don't really know. I do know that we are not to be a stumbling block in anyones path (2 Cor 6:3), so I guess we have to work it out before the Lord what we are meant to do. I think that I can be the biggest 'stumbling block' of all.

# posted by shellymac @ 8:10 pm

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Left Behind Series.

Well --- I have ALL 12 books of the 'Left behind' series and they take pride of place on my bookshelf! I've read them all through three times and I love them. I was brought up to believe the 'pre-mill' view and it wasn't until I was 21 and at Bible College that I found out there were other views on eschatology.

I do remember being a kid and coming home to an empty home wondering if I had been 'left behind'.

I love the charts and diagrams and I can get rather excited over it all.

But on the other hand, I'm not so 'one-eyed' as to think that a person who doesn't believe or interpret the meanings of Revelation the same as I do, that they are lost!

Our Old testament lecturer was an 'A-Mill' and we had many colourful discussions with him. He dedicated our fourth child in our Church and we called all our children Old Testament names, through the influence of this Lecturer, and I certainly believe that he will be heaven too - probably in the room next to mine!

There are many interpretations of Revelation. There must be a reason why God has allowed this book to appear so ambiguous in places.

But this quote We'll give the last word to Evonne: "The Left Behind books miss the point that Christ already has the victory!" I don't agree with and wonder if this lady has read all the books, because Christ is certainly lifted up and 'Yes' He already does has the victory, but there are still many days of prophecy to be fulfilled.

# posted by shellymac @ 7:47 pm

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two answers Shawn

Lets deal with the issue of nakedness first. A long time ago we taught in a church school in Paua New Guinea, the famous Martyrs School. It was right near the village of Aganahambo and there was aid post up the road, (I'll never forget the nurse giving me a crystaline penicillian injection there one day). Anyway one could walk in to the village or to the market at Popondetta at any time and see an woman breast feeding a child. We thought nothing of it.
So Nigel was born there in Popondetta and Shirley would go regularly to see the nurse at their aid post, and while waiting feed Nigel. No issue, No! the women were all agog, white people do it just like us! Shirley and I thought it was just hillarious, the curosity of native ladies that we were just the same in so many ways to them.
I agree with you about nakedness.

Now about living rightly, how would I know, a simple cabbie. Who in this group went to that Bible College, And who is a BSF leader. I'll confuse the issue with 'Situation Ethics', 'Cultural Ethics', the difference between 'venial sins' and 'mortal sins' some old-style Catholicism there, and even other issues and theories. Ha!

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 7:34 pm

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Sunday, August 07, 2005

Church involvement, Shawn

It seems to me, the New Testament expects Christians to be involved in a local church, to support others and to gain support, usually in the form of teaching on living rightly in a pagan world. I look at the passages about support and see little to suggest that we can be a Christian in isolation from a group of believers.
Depite faults, (and my cynacism gets plenty from the church), I believe I should be in one.
Now on another view all believers are 'the church', there is a world-wide church, of people of many races, ages and mis-understandings, I mean different views. In different places too. Good stuff!
Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:19 pm

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Friday, August 05, 2005

Answers from Gary

1. Active faith: true belief in Jesus needs to be active, ie involved in a local church with the person doing and giving to the church or to charities. It is not 'oh yes I believe but I never bother to go to church'. What is said in Revelation "I wish you were either hot or cold". And faith in practise takes effort, a bit more than making a cup of instant coffee.

2. In praying for my children, (and parents) I don't expect to ever stop, but its difficult as results haven't happened yet. Results may never happen but my role is to keep bringing my needs to God.

3. As Geoff alluded I believe very little of the book of Revelation. Its symbolism written for the people of the second century under persection saying stand firm for the Lord will return in glory and evil will get its horrible justice with a new creation on earth for the saints.

4. The church and the clergy. (I will consult my solicitor regarding the laws of libel before I write anything), but its more serious than that, we have to support them, and they have to support us. mmm!

blessings from Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 8:43 pm

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Thursday, August 04, 2005

Left Behind

Went to Gary's church (Holy Trinity, Doncaster) last night for the second of 3 talks on "end times". It was by Evonne Paddison warden of Ridley College and she started by giving us a lengthy summary of the "Left Behind" saga told in 12 books, with prequels and sequels as well. And some satirical spawns like the one pictured here!

At first it was a bit hard to tell where Evonne was coming from, whether she was an agent for the books or not. It turned out we think that Evonne's theology is very different from that of authors Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye, who were described as "pre-mill, post-trib" and espousing "popular dispensationalism" which didn't seem to fit with Evonne's theology, which could perhaps be described as "A-millenialism" but we're not absolutely sure (because towards the end Evonne had left me a fair way behind, actually).

Evonne did give us much food for thought, as did Gary afterwards (he was in fine form actually, stating all that he doesn't believe in including the beast!). For instance, one purpose of Revelation is to show the sovereignty of God and that the victory is already won (and that it's full of OT illusions - rich symbolism such as colours, numbers, precious stones etc, all standing for something but not necessarily to be taken literally). We'll give the last word to Evonne: "The Left Behind books miss the point that Christ already has the victory!"

There's a useful summary of dispensationalism in the Wikipedia, and an interesting lecture on dispensationalism, eschatology and the rapture (aligned with Evonne's theology, I think) on the web.

One alarming aspect of all this is the degree to which dispensationalism and the Left Behind books have influenced US foreign policy (does George Bush really send himself to sleep at night, reading the Left Behind series and trying to find himself in them??).

As we walked away from Holy Trinity with much to ponder, we noticed that Gary was left behind, still back in the church.

And putting a CD in as we drove off this morning, by pure serendipity it was "All That You Can't Leave Behind" by U2 (great album, actually)!

# posted by geoff @ 12:06 pm

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Monday, August 01, 2005

The heart of a parent.

Once we become parents we are never quite the same again. A part of our heart goes with each child. I remember when my kids were at school in a group of many, the only child I could see was my own. It was because I was looking through the eyes of love and my child was all that I could see.

I believe that God looks at each of us in the same way. When He looks at my son, He sees only him. When he looks at me, He sees only me, because He looks at me through the eyes of love.

Gary - God looks at your children with those same eyes of love and He sees only them.

It's heartbreaking when our children turn their backs on the Lord, or choose not to acknowledge Him.
What can we do?
Just love them all the more.
Tell them that we love them.
Be proud of their achievements. (and I'm sure that kind of pride is not a sin)
And never stop praying for them.

There is a time when we need to stop taking God to our children and start taking our children to God. No matter how old they might be.
Remember "My frame was not hid from You when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, You saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be." Psalm 139:15 & 16. God knows Nigel & Andrew and their partners, He knows the future and our prayers are never in vain.

I remember when I had a chat to Shirley on the phone last September, she said that she had a promise from the Lord for Andrew, but she didn't know when it would eventuate. And that is what we have to do - hold on to the promises that we have from God.
One thing I do know - when they eventually come to the Lord completely, no time is wasted. God can use the past years that have gone by to enrich and enable a person to minister to others in a deep and meaningful way.

When I was at MBI one of our lecturers wives (who by the way, came to the Lord as a young woman at my grandmother's guest house in Gormandale!) told me that she no longer prayed for the salvation of her son, as she knew that one day he would come to the Lord, but she constantly thanked the Lord for the miracle that He was going to do in her sons life.

So old friend -- hang in there, God has not fininshed His work yet!

# posted by shellymac @ 8:03 pm

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persevering

That was the theme of the talk at church yesterday, persevere in prayers for those who have a weak faith. Well that's my four, son Nigel and 'Liz who he is marrying next April, and Andrew who says he is engaged to Edie. We have probed and think that none of them have any real faith, certainly not an active faith. It is disappointing.

But Shirley and I will continue to pray.

She says often says that the children are the biggest worry and stress we have.

We have reached that time, (taking an idea from a tv commercial), where the first child has left home, and the last child has left home, so we are better off now with the 'furred' children, that is, the cat and the dog. But then we still worry about the first two, now four -- Nigel and 'Liz, Andrew and Edie.

Any advice? I may have some big news at the end of this week.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 7:07 pm

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