God Spot

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God Spot
This Christian Resource Blog has been created by a group of friends from around the world. Our purpose is to provide links to useful resources, some commentary on topical or doctrinal issues, a place where anyone can come with questions and a means whereby we can share our faith. And above all, to grow and encourage each other. As Christians, we believe we bear God's image in this world, and seek to glorify God's name in this endeavour. Any Christian who wants to join with us is very welcome!

Thursday, September 30, 2004

Politics - Chemistry Lessons

Carol, careful of chemistry with old boyfriends!!!

And I'm sure I'll enjoy The Terminal, anything with Catherine Zeta Jones sounds good!

(I read somewhere that Terminal is based around a true situation of a poor Iranian man who set up home at the Paris airport, without passport or valid id so unable to move far from his airport bench - which makes our homes and families seem even more special!)

# posted by geoff @ 9:31 am

0 comments

Wednesday, September 29, 2004

The Terminal

Tonight my son (20) and I went to a movie, called The Terminal.We laughed and laughed and laughed until our stomachs ached. Thewhole cinema was laughing out loud. My husband said Radio Rhema gave it a good write up (Christian station), although weren't impressed at a couple of "words". Actually, I didn't notice any bad words.....guess I was laughing too much!!!

Tom Hanks, Catherine Zeta Jones and Stanley Tucci (How do you pronounce Tucci?? Soft or hard "c"?) were the main actors. I think Tom is a most BRILLIANT actor. His facial expressions were supurb.

Anyone else seen it?

# posted by Caroline @ 11:17 pm

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Politics

Politics are a huge mystery to me (does that surprise you??) and I put it in the same category as sport, constellations, animals, OT laws, cars, chemistry, biology and all sciences. Not saying I don't LIKE these things, but still waiting for a latent interest to rise to the surface of my brain!

I have people handy in my life to keep me updated on the latest in these topics, whenever I feel the need.

My Dad, for politics
My brother, for sport
My sons, for cars
My sis in law, for animals
Google, for constellations
Old boyfriends, for chemistry
(er.. kidding!)

Better go before I open my mouth and put my foot in it any more!!!!!!!!

# posted by Caroline @ 10:16 pm

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Politics Downunder Achieves Miracle

Not often much good comes from politics - and yet, Australia's opposition leader Mark Latham, fighting for his political life in an election campaign that seems to be slipping away from him, has achieved the impossible:

In an article Churches savage Latham in today's Australian, we read the miraculous news:

"The Catholic and Anglican churches have joined forces"

Impressive, Mark Latham!

# posted by geoff @ 2:20 pm

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Ruth

Thanks Carol, it all seemed correct to my understanding. A very useful site too, and a good way to understand some of the OT stories, especially one as beautiful as Ruth. It took me a while to get my head around the legalities of the land inheritance bit in ch.5, and the various heirs. I particularly liked the explanation of the allegory at the end. It makes sense to me that the "closer kinsman" was Adam. What do others think?

And Gary, does BSF cover the book of Ruth?

# posted by geoff @ 1:12 pm

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Love continued......

Geoff,
One thing to get right.... my 16 year old isn't like that all the time!!! It was a little occasion he had which God brought into his life, and consequently for all of us to be taught exactly what Gods love is compared to our own best love! This lad had this experience, but it doesn't mean, OF COURSE, that he is like this all the time... otherwise he might be an angel! haha He is NO angel! But it was a little thing which happened to him, and something he (and us) can have as a little cornerstone experience ... something to go back to.... to bring him and us to the point again of knowing how that love is!

LOVED your thoughts on Gods love never ending! Thats so true and awesome. And your thought that faith and hope are for NOW, but not needed IN eternity .... however they are steps up the ladder towards knowing God, and in our rising walk with God towards heaven and home! Very nice.

I carry these thoughts with me as I catch up on some ironing! My husband is off to Brisbane on business for 10 days tomorrow morning! Its the only way he gets ironed shirts!!! haha

# posted by Caroline @ 1:11 pm

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God's Love and Our Love

Been good to think of this. Your story Carol of your 16-year-old's manifestation of God's love brought home to me what is a useful definition to get in my mind. It's this:

God's love in us is God-centric.

Human love is self-centric (or ego-centric?).

You see, kids in their teens usually think of THEMSELVES, first, second and a long way further... but your son was filled with a love that put God, His pleasure and honour, first. And that brought tears of joy to your son! Great experience for him.

Human love can have admirable qualities - it can result in great benefit to others, and to humanity. But God's love puts God first, the motivation is to bring glory to Him, and of course we and all humanity benefit accordingly.

Those verses in 1Cor13 tell of God's love thus:

Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends.

The hallmark of God's love in us is when we are not part of the equation - rather, bringing glory to God is paramount (as I think I can see in all those attributes of divine love that Paul mentioned).

That ch. finishes "So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Simply, love is greatest because it "never ends" - it is what will endure throughout eternity. But faith and hope won't be of much value once we are actually in God's presence in heaven, both being replaced by the reality of life in God's eternal presence.

The reason your question has been good for me to think about Gary, is because while we tend to know what we mean by God's love in our hearts (ie. our feelings), it seems to me that feelings can easily mislead us. Very easy for me to convince myself that the feelings I have for someone are a result of God's love in me. But if I keep in my mind the little test - God's love is God-centric, then I think that's a very useful check on my emotions!

# posted by geoff @ 9:50 am

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Tuesday, September 28, 2004

Ruth

Thankyou Geoff and Michelle for your kind comments, and Michelle for all you wrote on divine love.

I found a nice site and it has a lot of stories written there from the Bible, as though the person themselves wrote it (first person). I LOVED this story of Ruth and thought others might enjoy it too!

Firstly, I didn't know Ruth was a PRINCESS! And it really explains LOTS of the customs mentioned in the book of Ruth!

Hope it isn't too long, but I did find it fascinating. DO let me know if you think it is all correct!!!!!! Geoff and Dave (and others) ...... how does it tie in with what you have studied in BSF??

Ruth's Story
The Bible Thru the Eyes of its Writers

Part 1
Chapter 1The story I'm about to tell you is true. All of its characters are real people who really did the things I'll describe. I mention this at the outset because over the generations my story has so clearly predicted the relationships between Israel, the Church, and the Messiah that many who study it forget that it really happened. That fact that my story was once included among the books of the Prophets of Israel and even today is read in synagogues around the world on Pentecost has added to its mystique. Like several other biblical events, it's a true story that can also be viewed allegorically. Here's how it happened.
I was a Princess, the daughter of King Eglon of Moab (Jordan to you) when Elimelech, Naomi and their 2 sons moved across the river from Israel into our country. Elimelech had been the Mayor of Bethlehem, a small town in southern Israel when a protracted famine there forced them to move. It was just a couple of days walk from Israel to Moab but our country wasn't suffering food shortages the way they were. I heard that their God was disciplining them for their disobedience.
At first they thought their visit to Moab would be a short one, but when Elimelech died and then Kilion and Mahlon, their 2 sons, both married Moabite women (I was one of them, my friend Orpah was the other) it seemed they were here to stay.
10 years after they first came to live among us, both of Naomi's sons also died leaving Naomi, Orpah, and me all widows. I don't know if you're aware of this but in my day widows had no standing in the community and were totally dependent upon the good will of their families and friends for survival. In Israel it was the duty of the priests to look after widows and orphans (Deut. 14:28-29), but there was no such provision in Moab. So Naomi decided to move back to Bethlehem, where the famine had ended, and hope for the best. She encouraged Orpah and me to find new husbands among the Moabite men to care for us since we were still young enough to do so.
After much discussion and shedding of tears, Orpah agreed to return to her family home and look for a new husband but having come to know the God of Israel I through Naomi just couldn't bear to leave her. "Where you go I will go," I told her, "And where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die, I will die and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if anything but death separates you and me." So I went with Naomi to Bethlehem.
We arrived in Bethlehem, two rag-tag penniless widows, just as the barley harvest was beginning. Several people recognized her, saying, "Can this be Naomi?" "Don't call me Naomi," she lamented, "Call me Mara. For the Almighty has made my life bitter. I went away full but have returned empty." (Naomi means pleasant in Hebrew, while Mara means bitter.) On that sad note Naomi had returned home.
Chapter Two
Remember I told you Naomi's husband had been prominent in Bethlehem. It seems he had brothers who had remained there through the famine, and one of them had survived the hard times and recovered very nicely. His name was Boaz. He and his brothers were the sons of Rahab, the woman from Jericho who Joshua had rescued when the Israelites conquered that city years earlier. Boaz was a man of standing among the elders of Bethlehem, with fields of barley ready for harvest.
One of the ways in which the indigent were provided for in Israel was to leave the corners of the fields untouched as the harvesters went through reaping the grain (Lev. 19:9). These triangular corner patches, plus any other areas the harvesters missed on their single pass through the fields (they were also forbidden from making a second pass) were left for widows and orphans like Naomi and me to harvest for ourselves. So the day after we arrived I went into the fields to get us some food.
As it happened (the Rabbis say that coincidence is not a kosher word) I wound up in the fields of Boaz, and being a young and attractive woman I soon came to his notice. When he learned that I had just arrived with Naomi, he called me over instructing me to watch his servant girls and learn from them. He told me to glean only from his fields where he had ordered the harvesters not to bother me. Then he offered me a drink of water from the supply he had brought for his workers.
Not yet knowing who he was, I asked how I had found such favor with him. He said he had heard of my kindness toward Naomi and was repaying my acts of kindness with some of his own. Then he blessed me, as was the custom of the day, and at mealtime gave me some lunch. Later I learned that he even told his reapers to miss some sheaves on purpose so I'd have more to harvest for Naomi and me. That night I brought home so much grain that Naomi couldn't help wonder whose fields I 'd been working in. When I told her it was Boaz she began praising both the Lord and him, telling me that he was not only a relative, but one of our kinsman redeemers as well.
This was another Jewish provision that was new to me. In Israel if a man has a debt he can't pay and has to sell his property, his next of kin is responsible to redeem it for him, hence the term kinsman redeemer (Lev 25:25). This way the property given to each family when they first came into the Promised Land remains in the family. Since Boaz was one of Elimelech's brothers, he was a kinsman redeemer for Naomi, responsible for helping her in her time of need.
But there was another even stranger law involving the kinsman redeemer that would benefit us, and when Naomi told me about that one I nearly passed out. Also designed to help preserve the chain of inheritance, it's called the Leverite Marriage Law and goes like this. If a married man dies without bearing children, his brother is supposed to marry the widow and make her pregnant, in effect giving the dead brother an heir (Deut. 25:5-6). If there isn't a brother then the responsibility falls to the deceased's father or HIS brother. It wasn't mandatory to do this but it was a family disgrace to refuse. In both cases then, the kinsman redeemer had to be qualified, (only a next of kin was acceptable) capable (he had to have the means), and willing (it was his choice) to perform his obligation.
Since my husband, his brother and his father had all died leaving no children behind to inherit the family land, it appeared that Boaz, as my husband's close relative, also had responsibilities to me under the Leverite Marriage law. Even though I'm not Jewish, their laws also applied to gentiles living among them, especially those who had married Jewish men. The idea of marrying a prominent man like Boaz appealed to me, and he had obviously found me attractive as well.
Wow! One day I'm a destitute widow in mourning, a stranger in a strange country. The next I'm considering the possibilities of becoming the wife of a wealthy landowner. Things were definitely getting interesting.
Part 2
Chapter 3
Since my time of mourning for my dead husband was at an end, Naomi helped me get bathed, perfumed and dressed in my best clothing. She convinced me to visit Boaz at the threshing floor where he was staying during the harvest to help guard his grain against theft, but cautioned me to stay hidden until he had finished eating and drinking and had fallen asleep. Then I was to uncover his feet and lie down near him. In the middle of the night when his uncovered feet got cold he would wake up and see me. Naomi told me what to ask of him then, and said I should do whatever he said. This way no one else would see me there.
It happened just as she had planned, and when Boaz woke up he was startled to find a woman there watching him. "Who are you?" he asked. "I am your servant, Ruth," I replied, "And since you are a kinsman redeemer, spread the corner of your garment over me." I meant nothing improper by this. Spreading his garment over me was to symbolize that he was taking me under his protection according to the provisions of the Leverite Marriage law. .
By now he was shocked and not a little flattered. He said that my kindness was overwhelming, implying that someone of my young age and beauty could have my pick of suitors, and that in choosing him I had paid him great honor. But there was a slight problem. The law required the closest relative to act as kinsman redeemer. Another brother was actually a closed kinsman and therefore responsible to redeem us. This brother had to refuse and thereby disgrace himself before Boaz could become our kinsman redeemer.
Early in the morning, after assuring me that he would do all he could, Boaz sent me home with more grain. When Naomi saw the grain, she knew that Boaz was still looking out for us and would not rest until he had settled the matter once and for all.
Chapter 4
Meanwhile Boaz went to the center of town and waited until the closer kinsman passed by. Gathering 10 of the elders together in an impromptu court, Boaz explained to his brother the nature of the problem and asked him to redeem Naomi's land by paying her debts. When the brother agreed, Boaz informed him that in doing so, he also had to marry me to maintain my dead husband's estate. (Women normally couldn't inherit land in Israel so my husband was Elimelech's legal heir, not Naomi. Since he died childless, there was no heir for the family land even after it was redeemed. The Leverite Marriage provisions were also required, and that's why the kinsman redeemer had to marry me.) When Boaz told him that, the brother declined, saying it would endanger his own estate.
Immediately Boaz informed the elders that he himself would redeem Naomi's land and marry me. And so it was. That very day I became his wife and not long afterward I conceived and bore him a son, who would become my dead husband's heir and preserve the property of Elimelech and Naomi according to the law. We named our son Obed, and when he grew up he became the father of Jesse who became the father of King David. When King David's son Solomon built the Temple in Jerusalem, he named one of the two bronze pillars at its entrance after his great-great grandfather Boaz.
28 generations later because Joshua had saved Rahab and her son Boaz had married me making Bethlehem the birth place of King David and requiring Joseph and Mary to journey there to be counted in a Roman census, our fields were visited by a host of heavenly angels announcing the birth of the Messiah to the shepherds gathered there. And now when you review the Messiah's genealogy, you'll find my name there along with four other women, Rahab, my husband's mother, Tamar mother of Perez, Bathsheba mother of King Solomon, and Mary mother of our Lord (Matt 1:1-16), the only women so honored.
Explain The Allegory, Please
First let's summarize the story. As a consequence of national disobedience, Naomi was driven from her home to dwell among the Moabites. Because of that disobedience, I eventually came to know the God of Israel. Though Naomi had left her home full, she later returned empty alone and impoverished, her only companion me, a gentile who had been grafted into her family through marriage. After I was introduced to him by an unnamed servant, Boaz gave me gifts, blessed me, relieved my thirst and fed me, though I had done nothing to prosper him. Naomi also benefited from the blessings I received from Boaz, her kinsman redeemer. And in the process of paying Naomi's debts and redeeming her land, Boaz took me, a gentile, as his bride and our descendants became kings.
Now put Israel in the place of Naomi, the Church in place of me, and our Messiah in place of Boaz and read the summary again. As a consequence of national disobedience, Israel was driven from her land to dwell among the Gentiles. Because of that disobedience, the gentiles came to know the God of Israel. Though Israel had left the land full, she later returned empty, alone and impoverished, her only spiritual companion the gentile church who had been grafted into her family through marriage. After the Church is introduced to the Messiah by the Holy Spirit Who remains unnamed, He gives her gifts, blesses her, relieves her thirst and feeds her, though she has done nothing to prosper Him. Israel also benefits from the blessings the Church receives from the Messiah, her kinsman redeemer. And in the process of paying Israel's debts and redeeming her land, the Messiah takes the Church, a gentile, as His bride and their descendants become kings.
What About The Closer Kinsman?
Some say he represents Adam, unable to redeem the land he lost to Satan (Planet Earth) and restore the inheritance of his progeny. Adam was created in God's image but after the fall all his descendants were made in Adam's image, inheriting his sin nature, making Adam our closer kinsman. Others say he represents organized religion, similarly impotent. In either case you can see the problem. Adam would probably be willing to save us, but infected with sin himself, he can't meet the standard. After all God's law requires the shedding of innocent blood to redeem what sinful man has lost and restore our inheritance. And organized religion even with all its systems of "righteous" works simply cannot redeem anyone, being neither kinsman nor innocent. And therein lies the dilemma. There just wasn't an innocent man to be found, for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. To resolve this dilemma without breaking His own laws, God Himself had to become man, born of a woman and therefore kin to mankind. Then He had to offer His own blood, since only He is sinless.
But there's something here that should cause you to really stop and think. You can see God having the capability of becoming man to redeem mankind and of course being God, He's sinless and has the means to redeem us. But remember, it was the kinsman redeemer's choice. He could refuse. Our God had the DESIRE to save us. He was WILLING to exchange His life for ours. For God so LOVED us that He gave His only Son, that whoever would believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Through faith in the Son, we become children of the Father and inherit eternal life.
No wonder my story has been called The Romance of Redemption.

# posted by Caroline @ 10:33 pm

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1 Cor 13 - God's Love

Carol - you have worded it so well, when you refer to what your son has experienced concerning the girl he has been praying for.
I'm sure that at some stage we have all experienced a time when we have prayed for someone to come to the Lord, and they may never know that we have prayed in that way at all. What a joy to have a 16 year old boy whose heart belongs to the Lord.

My four kids have all given their lives to the Lord - but the scruffiest looking one who has hair half way down his back - is the one who brings you to the foot of the cross when he prays.

I think when we look at 1 Cor 13, we need to realise that the love referred to is Agape love - the love of God. In the flesh we are unable to love with the love of God, but with the strength of the Holy Spirit He enables us to do so. We often (my husband and I) use the verse - "Love keeps no records of wrong" when dealing with couples, friends etc who are having problems. So often the two parties will dredge up things from the past. Of course, we as mere mortals cannot forget what has happened - but - we are to forgive and not bring the subject up again. This is a great difficulty as you know. We had a pretty crook time with some people in our fellowship and they wrongly accused one of our daughters over something. Personally - I would have been quite happy if they hurt real bad - but then I had to learn to forgive them and not to bring it up again. It was over, buried, tossed out, not to be rehashed. The couple themselves would bring it up at times to apologise again, but we had to keep telling them, that we had already accepted their apology, the issue was over and we would not bring it up again.

'Love is kind' - always try to believe the best of a person etc. We can only hope to get near this love through Christ alone. 'Love does not insist on its own way' - we need to put the other persons desires ahead of our own. It reminds me of what was put in my autograph book when I was a kid - JOY = Jesus First, Yourself Last, and Others In Between,
Geoff - we still pray for Gavin and his family, and I believe that one day he will turn up on our door step again. (I'm soooo glad PORT won on Saturday!!) God's Word will not return void. Thanks for your expressions concerning women in ministry - You have said what I struggled to say! By the way - I work with a Female Radiographer almost every day - I have learned to respect her, and appreciate her and she is a Pastor.

# posted by shellymac @ 8:30 pm

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God's Love In Us

Carol, thanks for a beautiful story - brought moistness to my eyes as well (some of us are softies!). An excellent illustration, of something difficult to put in words.

And I think I noticed a tear in Gary's eyes, Saturday night. But I think I know what brought that on!!!

# posted by geoff @ 1:24 pm

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To Gary re Love

Gary,

I have a beautiful little story about how Gods divine love in us differs from our own best best human love.

My 16 year old son has a little book and writes (as prompted) many names of kids of all ages who he likes to pray for. Daily he prays for "those names in my book" as he has so many.

One is a girl, quite a little older than he is, who has had a bit of a troubled existance, far from God. My son has constantly prayd for her a long time.

One night a few weeks ago, he burst into my room and told me this particular girl had made her decision to serve God known to her family and church etc. His 16 year old tough male eyes were glistening with ......... what?

Joy! Happiness!

Why?

Because, even though she may NEVER know he had prayed for her, he had been a part of helping behind the scenes with perhaps many other unknown other praying hearts....... I said to him, "What you are feeling, is the actual same feeling and joy that Jesus and all of heaven are feeling right now! You are loving this girl with Gods divine love... not your own human love! "

He was not interested in this girl romantically (quite a bit older than he is) yet felt in heart at one with God, Jesus ..... all heaven!!!!! in his delight and love that this girl had made this choice!

I feel it is this love which I must aspire to. It cannot be gotten from ourselves. We cannot conjure it up .... it is only there as a result of having Christ dwelling within, and the nature of the Lamb producung this love in our hearts.

Carol

# posted by Caroline @ 1:20 pm

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Monday, September 27, 2004

Christian Love

Gary, appreciate your serious query re Christian love:

1Cor13:
If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;

I will need to ponder this, and get back to you. Meanwhile, any help from others please post it here, or email to Carol (above) who will post.

A good question, on some good practical verses to consider!

# posted by geoff @ 4:14 pm

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Michele on Women

Michele wrote:
I think I must be the only "conservative fundamental" on this site --- I feel uncomfortable with Women pastors - even though I have spoken many times in churches and given lectures concerning different things, and we have some women in our church who leave the men in the shade when it comes to spiritual discernment etc. Dare I say it - but it takes a special women to be in a position of leadership without it going to her head. I might be banished from this site now!

Not all of us Christians see eye to eye concerning many things - some of us still believe the earth is flat!!

Firstly, fascinating story re Gavin Wanganeen, Michele. Who knows where experiences will lead him, down the track. Shaun Hart is an inspiration. And on the topic of women, there was a good article by Michael Voss in Sunday's Age, where he reflects on the loss, his bitter disappointment, and how much his wife means to him:

http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/realfooty/articles/2004/09/25/1095961913772.html

(you may need to register to read it - it's worth doing, as you only do it once and get access to all the Age stories - not just sport!)

Now, I am not sure about your label ("conservative fundamentalist"), but I don't agree with Muriel either. The views in the two responding letters strike more of a chord with me. And yet I have enormous respect for women in every way. And believe that in Christ, as Paul says "there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3)

That doesn't say that we are all identical. And because I hold scripture in the highest regard, as God's word to me and to us all, a lamp to my feet and a light for my path, then there are other verses which I must take note of, and seek to understand and interpret correctly in regard to God's words on women's role in the church.

Good point you make about women and their strength in spiritual discernment. I would have to say, that women preaching also seems right, from personal experience and the results we've all no doubt witnessed. But I have difficulties, both scripturally and from personal experience, with women taking principle roles of teaching or leadership in the church - not that they're incapable (probably make excellent teachers of children, for instance). Just that it's not, apparently, God's order. And God being sovereign, and a God of order, who am I to query? Or try to rationalise with my (puny) intellect.

But I do believe, also, that it's not an absolute, die-in-the-ditch law. Like so many other areas, God tolerates so much that is less than His ideal. So, if there's no man available or willing or worthy for a task, I believe that God can and does use women. It's just not His ideal, from what I read and understand.

Where does that place me, Michele? Not "conservative fundamentalist"???

# posted by geoff @ 3:41 pm

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Saturday, September 25, 2004

needing help

Whenever I'm troubled and that's often a certain passage is important, but do I understand it. A litte help please:

Love is patient: whose love, not sure about mine, what is love, its only in the present tense, will love run out or not be patient one day, love in the worldly sense is that I'm liked when I'm good or someone wants to sell me something.

Love is kind: I wish I was, or am, or are we too self-critical, yes I'm good but then ...

Love does not boast: er, well I'll read something else.

This actually is a serious start I hope, if I ever can be serious. What is Christian love, and how do we do it, and cope with the world's view.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:21 am

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there's hope for people

Really, what's this about the blog becoming a Gary and Michele site, it because other people don't write enough. A lot of sad cases too, but Geoff Williams you have seen the light, the mighty Brisbane will run over those morons today.

Now Michele, (its not the Gary and Michele show), you need a globe of the world, to actually believe and know that the world is round, and to come to our church when the Rev. Carol is taking the service and giving out communion. What happened to the swinging sixties and women's lib. -- I can understand that it passed your family by, but you daughters, don't they have studs in the navel, an ipod, a tatoo on the bikini line, smoke, read Cleo, and drive like they were in the grand prix? Ah the modern young woman, is beyond me, and no wonder David Webb has grey hair.

And how is BSF, people? All the studies ae good.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:21 am

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Friday, September 24, 2004

Hi Geoff

Glad to see that this blog hasn't become the personal Gary & Michele site. :)

# posted by shellymac @ 9:23 pm

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re That One Day In September!

Go PORT ADELAIDE!!!! I'll be yelling for Port 'cause I don't want Brisbane Lions to win! Sorry Gary. We also know the Wanganeens personally and Gavin was being discipled by my husband for some time, until the pull of the world got to be too much. We stayed a week with them near Point Pearce mission in S.A. a few years back - that's another whole story in itself!
I think I must be the only "conservative fundamental" on this site --- I feel uncomfortable with Women pastors - even though I have spoken many times in churches and given lectures concerning different things, and we have some women in our church who leave the men in the shade when it comes to spiritual discernment etc. Dare I say it - but it takes a special women to be in a position of leadership without it going to her head. I might be banished from this site now!
I've just finished reading the 12th book in the Left Behind series - I loved them, and can't wait to be raptured and be with the Lord for eternity - oh, all the stressess and trials of this life would be over - what bliss.
Not all of us Christians see eye to eye concerning many things - some of us still believe the earth is flat!! :)
GO PORT!!

# posted by shellymac @ 9:08 pm

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That One Day in September!

Those in far-flung corners of this globe may not realise the significance of tomorrow. That One Day in September. It's close to a holy day, the AFL Grand Final when virtually everything lives and breathes football. The fact that it coincides with the holiest day of all in the Jewish calendar (Yom Kippur) is purely coincidental (last time this happened was back in 1966, when St Kilda won their only flag).

Tomorrow, Brisbane Lions play Port Adelaide on the MCG. The game will be telecast around the world. Watch it if you can. This Brisbane side is probably the best Australian Rules football side any of us will see in our generation. They have won the past three premierships, and this will be their 4th in a row (a record). They also happen to be Gary's team (having ditched Collingwood, in one of his smarter moves).

My prediction? Brisbane by 42 points (unless it happens to be 142!!)

And enjoy Yom Kippur!

# posted by geoff @ 4:44 pm

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Letter #2 to Muriel

Muriel's Castle

Dr Porter appeals to the popular defence of The Castle when she seems to be suggesting that "it's the vibe" of the Bible that men and women are the same and that thus there should be no differentiation in roles between the two. Yet in the same breath she admits that there are verses in the Bible that stand in sharp contrast to her conclusion.

Her willingness to simply ignore those specific verses, in favour of her preferred interpretation, falls well short of "the vibe" of her own article, where she adamantly denies rejecting the authority of Scripture.

Danielle Treweek, Pagewood, NSW

# posted by geoff @ 10:40 am

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Letter #1 to Muriel

In today's Age, the NSW lobby is responding to Muriel:

A 'trajectory' away from Biblical text

It seems that Muriel Porter ("Jesus accepted women. Why can't the Anglicans?", Opinion, 23/9) wants to take the Anglican Church to a point beyond what the words of Scripture say, on a "trajectory" of perceived meaning, at the expense of what many Bible passages clearly state.

While God created men and women equally in his image and both are equally precious to him, at some key points he intends men and women for different responsibilities in the family and the church. This picture of the relationships between men and women is found consistently from the first pages of the Hebrew Bible, through to the New Testament.

I agree with Dr Porter, however, when she says that the gospel of Jesus Christ demands the full equality of men and women in the world and in the church. It does demand equality in our need and access to the forgiveness of Jesus - but it does not demand sameness in all our responsibilities in Christ's church.

Claire Smith, Mosman, NSW

# posted by geoff @ 10:36 am

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Anglican Women!

Sorry guys, it's been a quiet period, just waiting for inspiration to hit! And yesterday's Age did the trick, compliments of Muriel Porter (she always works!):

Jesus accepted women. Why can't Anglicans?

Here's Muriel on Anglican women:

In the final week of the federal election campaign, Australia's Anglican Church leaders will be preoccupied with their own political issues. One of them - yet again - will be the place of women in the church. When the national general synod meets in Fremantle from Oct 2, the possibility of women bishops will once more be on the agenda.

It is now 12 years since women were first ordained as priests in this country, and there are now more than 500 Anglican women clergy across Australia. Yet significant opposition is being marshalled once again to women's full leadership in the church, based on the extraordinary claim that while women are equal to men in the eyes of God, they are "different" in the roles that God intends them to occupy.

"Equal but different", a Sydney-based organisation - Sydney diocese does not permit women priests - is waging a national campaign to try to prevent the general synod voting in favour of women bishops. Its principal weapon is a petition it is circulating, to be signed by women churchgoers only, which describes women bishops as an "unbiblical and divisive move".

On the basis of a few isolated biblical texts, Sydney theologians claim that women are eternally subordinate to men in the church and in the home: they should not exercise leadership in the church as priests, let alone as bishops, and at home they should be submissive to their husbands.

The truly hardline conservatives among them also argue that women should not preach or even proclaim the Scriptures in mixed congregations of men and women.

A startling new theological argument has been produced to bolster these claims. Women must be subordinate to men because Christ, as Son of God, is eternally subordinate to God the Father, the Sydney theologians argue. This is too complex an issue to unravel in a newspaper column, but it should be noted that it comes perilously close to an ancient heresy called Arianism, a heresy that most theologians thought had been safely scotched back in the fourth century.

That alarming development aside, the central claim of women's subordination is entirely in keeping with the teaching of all major theologians up to the end of the 19th century. They at least were consistent, however. They did not limit women's subordination to church and home. They insisted women were subordinate in all walks of life, because they claimed the Bible taught that women were an inferior, secondary creation, more prone to sin and deception than men.

The traditional view was that it was Eve's fault that Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden of Eden. So women were allowed no role in public life, unable to undertake higher education, enter the professions, vote, or have any legal status.

Why, we might ask, don't the present opponents of women in the church also require that women give up attending university, standing for parliament, or voting in elections - all activities universally forbidden to women down the centuries on the grounds it was contrary to Scripture? Perhaps because that would make them look just a bit silly in the 21st century?

Similar arguments were made during the debate about women priests but thankfully, in the end, did not prevail. But the context has changed markedly over the past 12 years. The Anglican Communion is now at crisis point over the issue of same-sex unions and openly gay clergy. Those who are insisting that gay people must remain lifelong celibates if they are to be acceptable in the church, claim that they are merely being faithful to Scripture. The crisis is about the authority of the Bible, the conservative forces argue, implying that they and they alone are obedient to Scripture. Those of us who interpret Scripture differently are labelled disobedient.

So opposition to women bishops based on supposed faithfulness to Scripture - the corollary being that those of us supporting women bishops are deliberately flouting God's law - might have a dangerous appeal to some synod members this time, concerned as they are about the unity of the church.

Yes, this is a struggle over Scripture. But it is not a struggle over the authority of the Bible, but rather over biblical interpretation. I reject the claim that because I interpret the Bible differently, I am rejecting the authority of Scripture.

On the contrary, I believe that women's full equality in the world and the church is demanded by the Gospel. While some verses might enjoin women to keep silent and to be submissive, I believe the overall trajectory of the Bible is that men and women are fully equal in all spheres of life, both being created in the image of God.

Jesus' own radical acceptance of women as equals, his inclusion of them among his disciples, and his first resurrection appearance to women, leave me utterly convinced that women must be admitted to full leadership in the church.

# posted by geoff @ 9:21 am

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Monday, September 20, 2004

Michellle and other corrections

I like the way Michele corrected so sweetly my spelling of her name. Her younger brother his name is spelt Garry, always was a big noise. After many years of marriage it finally got inside my thick skull, I wasn't being nagged I was being helped to do it right ('it' is not singular its a multitude of things I did wrong).

I'll be less kind now, there are Christians who still believe that the earth is flat, no hints at anyone, I wouldn't do that. I have no trouble, Shelly, that God created what continued over millions of years to cool and become the universe, and the created world developped beautiful and intricate as God intended, and now it is in decline from the perfect state, (in decay as the apostle Paul puts it), due to The Fall. Anyway all this is not a 'core' issue of the Christian faith, but the universe and the big bang shows me much of the greatness of God.

I didn't bother with Compass last night and we usually don't bother with it. I do believe that there was a Flood, logic says it was a local flood in the area where the Canaanites lived, not covering all the earth. Am I a heretic folks?

# posted by Anonymous @ 8:59 pm

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Sunday, September 19, 2004

MY prayer was answered!!

It was amazing to find Gary's name on this site. Someone who I have never forgotten and have continually had him in my prayers for 34 years! Wow - I'm really getting old! I had no idea where he was or what had happened to him. Now I know - thank you Lord.......
Can't say that I agree with the Big bang theory tho', my son would really get into that one - he is a strong creationist ( as is the whole family) - isn't it great that even tho' we can have differing views concerning many things, we can still have fellowship with those around us?
Had an interesting time at an Anglican church this morning - bit different to our small fellowship - would have liked a bit more singing tho', it's not often that I can just sing along without having to be up front.
I just might have to spell Gary's name with two "r"s soon if he continues to spell my name with two "l"s!! :-)

# posted by shellymac @ 9:46 pm

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the man in the wheelchair

The best line in the Simpsons is Homer saying "I wish I understood that man in the wheelchair". He was referring to Stephen Hawkins, and the program last Sunday night on him was excellent. I suspect millions of us couldn't understand Hawkins theories but it was all put together at the end: the universe did have a big bang beginning and there will be an end, and those two Canadian physicists through the program had provided the hard evidence to Hawkins's work: the universe is 3 degrees hotter than it should be and much noisier than it should be, plus we know that the planets stars and galaxies are moving outward, and the only explanation is that this is the result of the big bang. I hope that the program is repeated.
Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:19 am

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blessings and prayers answered

Just when we were starting to worry about Andrew he made contact. He like many who work in the ships has had trouble with visa into the USA and American territories: they are suspect for there is a lot of smuggling into Alaska and other teritories to avoid duties, the usual items and doughnuts too.

At the St. Johns training last week we had a session on eye injuries with and exceelent talk and picture show. Again not for the squeemish. I've started watching RPA on Thursday nights but not the program after whatever it is.

Of course I've watched the football, lovely.

Michelle admits that she was a shy teenager, was she ever and so was I. But we had a good faith and some good influences, have had and continue to have many blessings.

Nigel says he'll get me a job in about 6 months, (I need some experience in first aid); he's very happy with the work he is getting in the Rural Ambulance Service, we just want him to finish the course.

Politicians and advertisers stretching the truth mmm. We there are non core promises, and reasons for not keeping others. Yes Minister should be shown forever.

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:19 am

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Saturday, September 18, 2004

re Attitudes

Well, I agree that the Pollies are pretty pathetic, but the Lord still wants us to pray for them - even when we don't feel like it!
I've been for a walk and taken in the fresh air , the flowers, the blue sky etc, and enjoyed it - came home and watched Finding Nemo with a glass of Coke.
Geoff - I agree with your friend from B.S.F. who says that he believes that the coming of the Lord is soon. We are living in the days of prophecy being fulfilled. Some of it is exciting, but some of is it heartbreaking when we see so many people hurtling towards a lost eternity. My husband never loses and opportunity to share with unbelievers - nearly everyone in our suburb seem to know him - I on the other hand - am rather shy and tongue tied in the same situation. I can give a message at a meeting where I have done my homework - but a one on one seems to scare me! Oh well - the Lord can use any vessel can't He?
I love watching Telly - and could sit all day in front of it - but of course I don't. But one thing that I've noticed lately is the amount of lying that is used in advertising. It seems that it is 'O.K.' to lie to your mother and say you are having a banana instead of a packet meal, it is O.K. to pretend that your phone is on an answering machine and use the beeper on the microwave and trick a caller. The latest one I've noticed is when a mother gets a Nacho microwave meal for herself, and her young daughter calls her outside under a pretence and then locks the door to have the food for herself. Is it only me who finds this offensive? Any one else out there think the way I do?

# posted by shellymac @ 4:23 pm

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Attitudes

Hi folks,
I'm writing, or its it raving?, and having a play with size and color. Don't we need some nice things in our lives, to me those nice things include music, flowers, good wine and food, walking in parks. Nice things do no include political campaigns, and I hear that the spending on this one is huge, (disgraceful), nor do I believe much that is said, (well there are non-core promises that don't have to be met). John is working the 'fear tactics' well, not overtly but with anouncements about better security, and new military equipment. The church is silent, (or irrelevent, or confused as usual), while I would think that the church should push for more money to go to the needy, here and overseas. The pollsters are sure that church people votes for conservative parties, inculding One Nation.

Now a year ago on this Saturday morning I would have been going to BSF. I'm busy enough and don't miss it now. The St. John's teaching this week again was not for the squeemish as it was on eye injuries with an excellent talk and photo set. I'm learning a lot. Its a great interest and beats playing bowls in my old age, which has arrived.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:42 am

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Tuesday, September 14, 2004

World

It's a mess as you indicate Gary. At BSF last night (fellowship night, actually, so good to share with the guys over a coffee and biscuits), one of my men (Asian, like all but three of us) told of his strong belief that the return of Christ is not just imminent, but VERY close. It would be hard to argue with him! Maybe around 2008, I think he felt. I know we don't know, but it's the only hope for a very messed-up world.

Today's news, following hot on the heels of the Jakarta embassy bombing, is also bad for Australia (suspected two Oz hostages held in Iraq, to be executed within 24 hours unless Aust withdraws troops). It's taking us almost 24 hrs to work out whether it's true or a hoax!

The Asians are very devout and very serious Christians. Many have become Christians fairly recently, after being brought up Buddhist. They expressed a concern that just like they followed the traditions of their families in becoming Buddhists, that their children would simply follow a rote Christianity and miss the life and personal relationship that is essential.

Also one expressed the shock that while we recognise many of the OT people of God (such as the Israelites wandering in the wilderness) as being a bad lot, they never had the privilege of the indwelling Holy Spirit, which we all have today - and are we any better? Clearly we would be expected to be...

# posted by geoff @ 5:11 pm

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Saturday, September 11, 2004

the bombing

Well, good John Howard has said the usual things and we will cary on as usual: protection, military strength, allied to the americans, those asians are not people like us (and we don't want them here), little understanding and little help. It will help him win the election, fear is a motivator and he knows it. Help, understanding, dialogue: no! Iraq is 'going well' for the americans and chetenya for the russians, as did other places like vietnam in the past. more millitary spending, less for the needy, the rich are doing ok, getting richer of course. And the church, nothing to do or say: teaching this week will be one some new testament passage, and nothing else will get a mention.
Why do I go.
gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 10:14 am

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Friday, September 03, 2004

Back from holidays

Hi everyone,

It was a marvelous holiday in that it was so relaxing. I went swimming every day and read 4 books including "Cloud Street" which I really enjoyed, and a book about the history of medicine and "In the Lake in the Woods" and American book Shirley hates and has to read for one of her students. I think it is very good, but not suitable for year 11 students, mainly because I don't like the language and how so many books are so flipppant about adultery.

Welcome Michelle, a person from my rather, no very, unhappy childhood. Like many a few thoughts over the years have been that I'll re-meet many people in paradise one day in much better circumstances.

We are detirmined to move out of Melbourne in retirement: Kynton is at the top of the list, equal to Goolwa in S.A. Saw Nigel the other night as he called in on the way home; he is working part-time with the Rural Ambulance Service in Kyneton and Daylesford. Good wine around Kyneton Geoff and David.

best wishes Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:46 pm

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