God Spot

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God Spot
This Christian Resource Blog has been created by a group of friends from around the world. Our purpose is to provide links to useful resources, some commentary on topical or doctrinal issues, a place where anyone can come with questions and a means whereby we can share our faith. And above all, to grow and encourage each other. As Christians, we believe we bear God's image in this world, and seek to glorify God's name in this endeavour. Any Christian who wants to join with us is very welcome!

Sunday, November 28, 2004

What we believe

Shirley and I are reading a book called "I Believe This" by John Marseden where he has 100 well-know Australians writing about 3 pages on what they believe. Now this is difficult for most, we can't put into words what we believe and Chirstians should be able to, we often can't handle difficulties in the faith, and of course some people don't believe very much at all.

The section by Barbara Thiering, the theologan, is quite sad. Like many she has lost her beliefs, being caught up in too many discussions on difficult aspects of the faith.

And many sports people believe in mateship and dedication, not much else, they are avoiding important issues.

Something else in this line annoys me and it will happen in church today. We will say one of the creeds of the church glibly, and I doubt that many really understand. Being Anglicans we will probably say the Nicean Creed, we have never had any teaching on it and we will pass by any reference to the 39 Articles of the Anglican church.

Back to theologians, do you all know the Yes Prime Minister program where Jin has to recommend a man to the Queen to be the next arch-bishop when end in the lines:

Jim to Humphrey: "You mean the church has people who don't believe in God?"
Humphrey to Jim: "Oh yes Prime Minister, they are called theologicans!"

So will we put into words what we believe, I think we should, Geoff you have been elected to start, but I will later today.

best wishes and blessing to all from Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 7:02 am

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Saturday, November 27, 2004

Sunburn, Christmas, Churches, and Pre-Mill

Well Gary, it's not quite as hot as what it was predicted to be, so hopefully there weren't too many cases of heat exhaustion today. I hate the heat and got burned when up in Queensland for my friends wedding. I'm now shedding skin like a snake. I've actually gone a bit brown which is a rarity for me.

Christmas fills me with horror - not the right attitude to have at all. There is so much commercialisation and push to spend, spend, spend. There is also the added pressure in the Church to hold the special services for the elderly, the Carols by Candlelight, the Christmas Dinner - the list goes on. Besides, I think I only packed away the Christmas tree last month.

I know there are alot of churches around and I agree that the main stream churches should amalgamate, but at the same time, I believe every time a church closes it's doors for the last time, Satan rubs his hands with glee. We need to have pockets of dedicated Christians all around the place, yet to have so many churches to build etc, the financial ramifications are huge. Home churches prevent that problem, and can be good for rich fellowship. BUT, being on the end of hosting a home church for evening meetings for well over a decade, I would never do it again. Maybe if it happened after all our kids were grown up, it would have been different, but I wouldn't recommend it to parents with young families. But that's just the way I feel, other people I'm sure would feel differently.

I haven't been on the blog for a couple of weeks, but I noticed that Gary referred to 'that ignorant woman' who asked him if he was pre or post mill. I have a feeling that 'ignorant woman' is me. Am I right? Never mind - when we are all going up in the Rapture I'll turn to you Gary and say 'I told you so!' :)

Geoff the 'Toronto Blessing' has too many problems - we have picked up alot of people who have been battered and scarred from the experience. We've seen first hand the mental, emotional, and spiritual problems that have affected loved ones. There are many similarities between the Hindu worship and what the Toronto is all about. Quite scarey really.

Anyone going up to Belgrave Heights this year?. Our church have hired Kitchen 1 and a few people will be camping there in the A frame. They have asked me to go, but I'm afraid I like the creature comforts, anyway my son Jonathan and his wife Dianna will be taking leadership at Campaigners and we might go and babysit their house at Melton. It's actually our house (or the mortgage company really) and we've never stayed in it, so it would be good to go there. We will be visiting Belgrave Heights a couple of times. I want to listen to this Paul Barker I've heard about.

# posted by shellymac @ 1:09 pm

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Thanksgiving Day

It one of the few American customs we could adopt, but like the Canadians I would hold it on another day. The American one is always the last Thursday in Nov. and being good capitalist they go shopping on the Friday, its the biggest shopping day of the year. Most get a holiday except for retailing.

I am sick of the commercial aspect of Christmas already and being told to go buy something and get into "the spirit of Christmas". I will get more of it though, heaps more.

I better thank the Lord for the weather now while its cool. I am going to do first aid at the big rowing event today and it will be very hot. Most events take half an hour and we could easily have some exhaustion and heat stroke. I will be uncomfortable. I already have the water and sunburn cream out.

best wishes from Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 7:11 am

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Sunday, November 21, 2004

Groups

Geoff for a few reasons we do't get the newpaper every day so I have not read the article. Could you scan it and sent it around, please.

I was once in the Neo-Cathical Community, which is very good, but time consuming. I dropped out when they moved from the Anglican church in Ashburton to somewher in the north, Fawkner, I think and to a R. C. church where they would be more welcome, (by the bishops). Always wanted to be in Opus Dei just because of the name, 'work of God' but that is a very conservative movement these days.

Really there are too many groups and too many churches: its wasn't meant to be like that. Sure there is in theology one church throughout the world, but in practice too many, too close together, doing much the same thing, (I have always wanted more variety).

Once in the spell when I was a church treasurer I said to the Registrar of the Diocese we have too many churches and that a parish is 10 minutes drive on a quiet Sunday morning, to which she replied, 'we know and would like to amalgamate many'. That in the Anglican churches is a slow painful process usually driven by financial problems. Meanwhile, the bishops and some people want to put up church buildings, halls, houses, kindergatens and even schools in the new suburbs, and that means big amounts of dollars for land and buildings.

In times past the churches, especially the then Church of England in Australia, got land by government grant (Holy Tinity for example) or by bequests in wills. Not likely today, and like probate taxes too slow in coming in.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:03 am

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Saturday, November 20, 2004

The Fellowship

Grand-sounding name, but amazingly easy for cults to spring up! Seems all you need is a dash of works, plus some people to start feeling superior. Interesting article in today's Age. Gary, have you come across these folk?

# posted by geoff @ 11:20 am

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on the Lord's return

Well, at bible study on Wednesday night we were directed to Rev. ch. 4 and with 8 people what a range of understandings and lacks of understanding.

We should discuss this, I haven't been mean to Michele for a while. I think that she is away standing on one on of the corners of this flat earth -- Queensland.

But really I think that we should hold to about 5 truths, and laugh at, or discuss or accept the differences about the rest, as 'non-core' aspects of what we don't really understand.

And get on with living and learning things for the present.

Why I'm writing this is that Geoff mentioned it, and false teachers always know so much about the terrible things that will happen. That unfortunately ignorant woman once asked me if I was a pre millenium or a post-millenium, well really I'm a non-millenium. Keep seeing it all in terms of imagery and comforts for the early church.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 7:27 am

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Friday, November 19, 2004

False Teachers

Gary, good thoughts about handling wrong doctrine in the church. And Michele, it's scary when you consider all the different forms of worship, that some can be totally evil yet masquerade as good and fool good honest people. Which is why a strong faith in God's word (scripture) is so essential to avoiding the type of things you've witnessed, I feel. What is your assessment of the Toronto blessing business?

While I'm away Gary, Dave can address your request to attend home church. Not sure if he's reading here just now, but I'll make him aware of his responsibility!

And here's a web-site on what a friend calls a "rather radical preterist view". The material on the site is a 500 page book THE PAROUSIA (the NT doctrine of the Lord's Second Coming) by James Stuart Russell (1878) which has been reprinted in the last 10 years - the Hebrews, Revelation and Acts chapters come with a recommendation.

Stan (where are you???) - is it sound?

# posted by geoff @ 1:40 pm

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Sunday, November 14, 2004

advice and discipline

I am not getting into the Benny Hinn discussion but

firstly, I don't like any of these people on television

secondly, we people are quick on being judgemental

third, while we shouldn't judge we should look at the 'fruit' of some people

fourth, there are provisions in the church of the new testament for excluding those of wrong donctrine, moreso in the Church Of England, and its associated churches. If the Archpishop of Canterbury read the 39 Articles of his church then he would be intiating excommunication proceedings against the American homosexual bishop, but discipline is in short supply in the world-wide Anglican churches today, and what is meant to be some uniformity to good doctrine is quite lacking.

Fron the Articles and the methods through the prayer book, I think that the Anglican church has it close to right regarding teaching, less so about organization. I still want to go to a home church.

I would like to see the video, Michele. And go to a home church Geoff.

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:30 am

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Saturday, November 13, 2004

Benny Hinn

Yes it's true Geoff that this man is a whacko. But not only is he a whacko but a tool of Satan. We just find it so hard to believe that these rellies of ours are into it [they are not true rellies, but in India if you have a member who is married into a part of a family, then everyone are cousins :)]. Benny Hinn along with Rodney Howard-Brown and others are so used of Satan that it is terrifying. We had access to a video of Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Brown having a so called 'converstaion' in tongues. If you listen carefully you can hear proper words in between babble, and they are blaspheming and using foul language. Another guy (can't remember his name right now) on another tape was having a meeting where people were hissing like snakes and literally slithering off their seats on to the floor. It is definately a 'different gospel' as the Apostle Paul says.
But these people say that we are the ones that are legalistic - they are the ones who have been 'set free'.
I know one girl in Lismore who was deep into the Toronto blessing, and she would be at meetings laughing and rolling around, but when she went home she would cry all night from the emptiness of it all. She has now come away from that particular group but is carrying excess 'baggage' from her experiences. We have had many people come to our church in similar situations and conditions. Your heart just goes out to these poor deluded souls.

# posted by shellymac @ 1:04 pm

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Thursday, November 11, 2004

Benny Hinn? Spitting??

Michele, you wrote:

Some of our close friends (connected through marriage) have become disciples of Benny Hinn. At the moment they keep spitting - as they believe that you have to rid yourselves of the sins of past generations as the sins get handed down over the years. These are people who had a Brethren Assembly background, and the wife's father was an Evangelist in India for many years. He would be spinning in his grave if he knew what has happened. The sad thing is that you just can't have a reasonable conversation with them, as they believe that we are lost and their way is the only way. It has rocked the whole family (the Indian side) with what has happened.

Are you serious about Benny Hinn and spitting???

What on earth do these people believe that they have, that is essential for salvation, that all us other believers like yourself Michele, are lacking and thus "lost", unsaved? Sounds like legalism/works-based salvation to me. The type that Paul referred to as "a different gospel" - a distortion of the gospel of Christ (Gal.1:6-7)

Are your friends typical of Benny Hinn followers (exclusivist, etc)?

Just read a bit on Hinn, he sounds a whacko to me:

Throughout his dissertations, Hinn avows that the Bible says what he says. But his ploy is the same as that of every false teacher, which is to pull a proof text out of context and apply it to a personal interpretation which is claimed to have been given by direct revelation from God. Where in Scripture is it found that some "spirit-man" distinct from us, comes into us? The Holy Spirit comes into us, but Hinn isn't speaking of the Holy Spirit, because he says this spirit-man was "created before the foundation of the world."

# posted by geoff @ 2:59 pm

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Business Trip

Well some people have it hard in their business don't they? I on the other hand often go on business trips - 1 1/2 klms away and then back!

Bit scary about Bush saying that he trusts that God speaks through him - I always thought that God revealed His will through studying the Scripture. Maybe I'm old fashioned.

Some of our close friends (connected through marriage) have become disciples of Benny Hinn. At the moment they keep spitting - as they believe that you have to rid yourselves of the sins of past generations as the sins get handed down over the years. These are people who had a Brethren Assembly background, and the wife's father was an Evangelist in India for many years. He would be spinning in his grave if he knew what has happened. The sad thing is that you just can't have a reasonable conversation with them, as they believe that we are lost and their way is the only way. It has rocked the whole family (the Indian side) with what has happened.

# posted by shellymac @ 1:27 pm

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Tongue-tied?

A week or so ago, there was a (rather frightening) report of how George Bush believes he's on a mission from God. In it, our modern-day crusader tells us (actually, he told Amish farmers in Pennsylvania in a private meeting) "I trust God speaks through me". To which my alarmed wise friend quipped "God's become tongue-tied all of a sudden!"

And Carol and hubby are leaving right now, for 2 weeks (a business-earned trip - fly to Florida and take a 5 day cruise all round there in the Carribean - hit Bahamas and Jamaica... all paid for :)) Then we are flying over to Denver....... for a few days, then home in 2 weeks). Tough in business these days! Enjoy, God bless.

# posted by geoff @ 1:14 pm

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Thursday, November 04, 2004

On my church and its troubles

Paul Barker spoke as usual at the Annual Meeting last night, and was quite disappointing. He showeed himself to be conservative and went in for a good amount of name calling -- hard not to do and I know I do it too.

However his theme was that the (Anglican) church is in crisis and splits have started, are likely to continue and its because of those who do not have the bible as their authority. I thought this was quite unkind, (had he had a hard day).

There is an amount I don't agree with and my focus of disappointment is the Sydney Diocese but their leaders are Anglican Christians and so often refer to the bible. Its their interpretation Calvanist and outdated.

In reading the bible for understanding five of the ten rules are context, context, context, customs of the time, and context, and Sydney's leaders are stuck in interpretations mostly outdated.

Yet Sydney is leading regarding orndinary people leading the churches services, (lay presidency), which seems to have the rest horrofied!

And on their outdated basis Sydney leadrs go to some wrong applications and are stuck in battles lost by conservatives in other places, (I do go in for name calling).

I need help in interpretating the scriputres for living today ....... Carol, Geoff, Michele ... others... help this simple person out.....

best wishes from Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:11 pm

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Decadence

The Melbourne Spring Racing Carnival is just about over and I'm wondering a number of things. How did 110,000 people get to the races on a working day. Well being a cabbie I know the answer, in many a business the girls go to work all ressded up and looking gorgeous and about 11:30 are given a couple of Cabcharge Dockets and some money from petty cash and are given the rest of the day at the races, on the business expenses. Having been to Flemington when its not a race day I've seen the enourmous amount of rubbish and empty bottles that get carted away: we are a nation of heavy booze drinkers. And with two races days out of three so far having record crowds and at least one record betting day where are we heading. I have taken a few females to the races and wondered if what they call a dress is more suitable as a nightie. It must have cost a lot for they didn't have any money left over for underwear. Most of course are there for the good time and not the racing and after the Carnival ends the crowds drop enormously except for two or three special days. I'm getting old, but Michele if you agree explain what is a glitter g. I'm definitely getting old. Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:11 pm

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Monday, November 01, 2004

From Revelation new earth and no sea

Its all poetry and symbolism and we need to know our Jewish and Christian ideas.

To the early Jews the sea was terrifying, dangerous and full of monsters, giant fish and squids. It was dangerous to sail on. That persists into Christian time thus we bless the fleet or ships even today.

The desert was the infertile land not blessed by God, and contained dangerous creatures like unicorns, lilliths, sartyrs etc. Thus when Jesus went to the desert for 40 days its no wonder he met satan, it was satan's land. (who went after who?)

To the persecuted church of the first century it was of great comfort that the world was to pass away, for the saints the safety of a new city, not a new Garden. And no sea and actually no wilderness either.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 6:40 pm

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BSF Correction - Acts 15 Times!?

A friend who is a very good amateur historian suggests the following (disagreeing with the BSF suggestion, I think):

It has been much debated as to whether Gal 2:1-10 refers to Acts 15. The chief difficulties equating the two are:

1) Gal2:1 states this is Paul's second visit to Jerusalem while Acts 15 is clearly at least his third (Act 9:26, 11:29-12:25, 15:2)

2) In Gal2 Paul states this was a private visit "in response to a revelation" (v2) at which he and Barnabas saw only James & Peter and John in Jerusalem. Acts 15 was a very public meeting involving the whole Jerusalem church to which Paul and Barnabas were sent as delegates of the Antioch church.

3) The outcome of the Galatian meeting (agreed spheres of operation - Paul to the Gentiles, J,P,J to the Jews) is rather different from the Acts 15 authoritative letter, formalising the offical decision of the Apostles & the whole Jerusalem church re obligations of Gentiles to the Jewish law.

4) Paul would surely have reminded the Galatians of the Jerusalem Council decision, authoritative and in writing, which he and Silas PERSONALLY COMMUNICATED to them. It would an excellent weapon against the Judaizers.

Recent scholars seem to be progressively coming to the opinion that Galatians was written BEFORE Acts 15 - but not long before - maybe only a year or so. The chronology would be as follows (bounded by two fixed dates):

AD 44 Herod's death (a fixed date)
AD 45 Paul and Barnabas in Antioch (Acts12:25-13:1)
AD 46-47 Paul & Barnabas Missionary Journey to Galatia
AD c48 Paul & Barnabas private visit to Jerusalem (Gal2)
AD c48 Peters visit to Antioch
AD c48 Galatians written from Antioch
AD 49-50 Acts15 Jerusalem Council
AD 51 Paul & Silas & Timothy in Corinth (Acts18:12-17) (a fixed date)

Supporting the above are Paul's words in Gal1:6 "I am astonished that you are SO QUICKLY deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel" which strongly suggest only a short time since Paul had preached to the Galatians - not a number of years!

A scenario for the events might run something like this.

1) Acts14:26-28 Paul & Barnabas return to Antioch after completing their mission in Galatia

2) Word gets back to Jerusalem that Paul & Barnabas had returned from a ground breaking mission in Galatia where they had accepted Gentiles into the church without requiring circumcision or other Jewish rites. There is a reaction by some hardliners who go Antioch and infiltrate the church there (Gal2:4).

3) Paul sees the potential for the whole Gentile mission falling in a heap if the Judaizers have their way. He decides to nip it in the bud by going straight to the top - to the Apostles in Jerusalem, Peter John and James. Either they will support him in which case he will stick to his guns and stand up against the opposition OR if they don't support him ... he will have to rethink the whole basis of his teaching. So he and Barnabas and Titus (a prime example of a Gentile convert) make this PRIVATE visit (Gal2:1-2).

4) Paul & Barnabas get a favourable hearing from PJJ at Jerusalem and their agreement that they (P & B) continue working among the Gentiles (Gal2:6-10).

5) Paul & Barnabas return to Antioch thinking everything was ok after getting this 'official' agreement.

6) Peter then visits Antioch to see for himself how the Gentile church was functioning. He fits in fine ie eats with the Gentile brethren, UNTIL some hardliners arrive from Jerusalem, supposedly with James authorization! These men say, heh! You can't do this and refuse to eat with the Gentile sector. Peter, caught between a rock and a hard place obliges them. Next Barnabas, and then all the Jewish sector withdraw from eating with the Gentiles. Paul says ENOUGH! This was a TOTAL RENEGING OF WHAT HAD BEEN AGREED A SHORT TIME AGO AT JERUSALEM between he & Barnabas and Peter James and John, so he confronts the issue head on (Gal 2:11-14).

7) It would seem that Paul's council prevailed and Peter (and Barnabas and the Jewish sector) pull themselves back into line and an (uneasy) peace descends again at Antioch. Peter leaves Antioch.

8) Paul then gets word that the Galatian church has fallen under the spell of the Judaizers. He is stung into immediate action and WRITES GALATIANS and dispatches it.

9) Some more Judaizers arrive in Antioch (from Judea) and openly challenge the Gentile conversions that are without circumcision. Paul and Barnabas say NO WAY! The debate escalates. The Antioch church decides that this whole issue of Gentile obligation to the Jewish law HAS TO BE RESOLVED ONCE AND FOR ALL - by an OPEN CHURCH decision involving the FULL CHURCH, ELDERS and APOSTLES at Jerusalem. Paul and Barnabas are chosen as Antioch's representatives (Acts15:1-2).

10) The Jerusalem council makes its decision, confirmed in writing and addressed to Antioch, Cilicia and Syria. Paul and Barnabas, Judas and Silas return to Antioch with the letter (Acts 15:22-24).

11) After some time (probably months not years) Paul & Barnabas decide they should visit again their Galatian converts. They disagreed about whether John Mark should accompany them resulting in a split into two pairs - Paul & Silas going to Galatia via Syria and Cilicia and Barnabas and John Mark going to Cyprus (Acts 15:36-41).

12) In Galatia Paul and Silas deliver the decisions of the Jerusalem Council. Interestingly there is no hint (in Acts) of earler trouble in Galatia except a possible inference from the rather direct statement that the Jerusalem rulings were to be 'obeyed' (Acts 16:4-5).

13) The writer of Acts (almost certainly Luke) suddenly appears at the end of Acts 16 when the narrative changes to the first person, strongly suggesting that he joined Paul and Silas and Timothy at this point of their journey (Acts16:8-10).

SOME SPECULATIONS RE LUKE AND THE GALATIAN CRISIS

Assuming Luke is the author of Acts. It has been suggested since early church times (ie writings of the 2nd century) that he was from Antioch and some scholars think he is the Lucius of Cyrene in Acts 13:1. But how did he fit into, and what did he know about, the Galatians crisis. In Acts:
A. Why does he not mention Paul & Barnabas' earlier Gal2:1 visit to Jerusalem?
B. Why does he not mention the Galatian crisis (assuming he knew about it)?
C. Why does he suddenly 'pop up' to join Paul's party in Troas (Acts16:10) apparently as an experienced and well known (Gentile?) Christian brother?
D. Could he be expected to have known about the Galatian crisis?

Too much for here, but there's an interesting study on the net, an email list forum for exchange by 'serious' Pauline scholars. Stan, Michele - thoughts on all this?

Gary, I think our friend the historian could be nominate3d to the BSF board - he could do the next re-write of the notes!

# posted by geoff @ 3:03 pm

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Square - Not Michele

Michele, thanks for your very honest comments on your upbringing - many that we can associate with, incidentally!

You say you did Acts at Bible College - I will come to you for help with difficult bits! I think John would be my favourite study too, but not sure I could manage an A+!! But I would at least equal your D- for NT Greek (probably go a lot lower).

Which BSF group did you attend - Diamond Valley? (we may know your leader!) You're right, BSF insists on incredible levels of discipline! (that old Protestant work ethic - they get us men up at 6 am on a Saturday, the one day of the week to catch up on sleep, for little good reason other than the leader is a morning-person and they believe it's good discipline for us - or so it seems).

You asked why do we think it says in the Bible that when there is the New Heaven and the New Earth that there will be no sea? Don't know, and I can't think of a friend to phone. Actually, I can - where are you Stan??? Maybe the others will know. Gary? (you were the smart one at BSF)

# posted by geoff @ 2:50 pm

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