God Spot

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God Spot
This Christian Resource Blog has been created by a group of friends from around the world. Our purpose is to provide links to useful resources, some commentary on topical or doctrinal issues, a place where anyone can come with questions and a means whereby we can share our faith. And above all, to grow and encourage each other. As Christians, we believe we bear God's image in this world, and seek to glorify God's name in this endeavour. Any Christian who wants to join with us is very welcome!

Friday, October 31, 2003

POOR GEOFF!

Geoff, Thanks so much for all your posts!!! I have been away for a week and see you are handling this almost singlehandedly! Well, I have thousands (er..... hundreds!) of thoughts buzzing around in my mind and will come shortly again to read your contributions and see what God asks me to add!
Love to you all!

# posted by Caroline @ 9:04 am

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Thursday, October 30, 2003

Be the Christian You've Become

David Boan's preview of where his next 4 talks are heading ("what is God doing in us - through the Spirit") reminded me of the message of Major Ian Thomas (Capernwray Mission) of how to "be the Christian we've become" which is "Christ in you".

Major Thomas wrote in an email "of sharing the liberating message of the true Gospel, that the Lord Jesus not only gave Himself on the Cross FOR us in redemption, but that, risen from the dead, He has given Himself TO us in regeneration, to live His life IN and THROUGH us, because He is the only One Who can and IS the Christian life! The REGENERATIVE purpose of His RECONCILING death for us, was to restore the life of God to us, for it takes God's life in us to be spiritually alive and functional as a human being. Christ in the Christian puts God back into the man, and that is the new birth! So gloriously simple and so gloriously logical!

# posted by geoff @ 5:06 pm

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David Boan's First Night

Went along and listened to WA bible teacher David Boan's review of his first 5 talks in his discipleship series last night (see posts of 5th and 8th Sept below). Recommended for anyone in striking distance of Melbourne!

The take-home points for me were that bible teachers don't actually teach us anything we don't already know (through the indwelling presence of the Spirit). Rather, the gift of teaching is to help us understand, to know what it is we know! (if that makes sense - if not, ask David himself as we've invited him to join our blog to help us out!)

And "if you need a method to live the Christian life, then you don't know the person (God)" - The "being" comes before the doing. Shades of "Be the Christian you've become" (Major Ian Thomas - see next post!) Jesus graciously says first in Matt 5 "you are the light", before exhorting us to "let your light shine".

David will be talking again at St Luke's Anglican Church, Vermont, continuing on his series on discipleship. Next talk at 7.45 pm on Friday 31st (on righteousness), Saturday 1st Nov at 2.30 pm (holiness), and continuing at 7.45 pm on Monday 3/11, Wed 5/11 and Fri 7/11.

Details from Richard Temby (03) 9874-1360.

# posted by geoff @ 4:53 pm

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Tuesday, October 28, 2003

And Welcome Jensen!

Our friend from BSF, Jensen Low, has just signed up. I trust once he gets the hang of "blogging" (and realises how much fun it is!) he'll post an intro, then help us with BSF wisdom and other interesting stuff in his life. Welcome, Jensen!

The BSF doctrine for last week was "man - created being". Here's some points Grant made re this:

- being a created being, man is part of the created order.
- in the scheme of creation, what is the purpose for man?
- being created, man is not independent of the creator.
- freedom of choice doesn't mean man is not ultimately accountable to God.
- created in God's image; unlike plants and animals, we have a heavenly purpose.
- ultimate purpose is to bring glory to God & to have fellowship with Him.
- we need to respond to God as we've been created to do.
- (getting personal now) what is God's purpose for me? (in it's detail, is my life fulfilling the purpose that God has created me for?)
- like Solomon, we can arrive at a point of accomplishment, and query "what else for me to do?" Guess at this point, we can relax, feel that we've "arrived" - life can be comfortable; or we can take risks for God!

# posted by geoff @ 3:17 pm

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Two more David's!!

Our mate, David Peake, mentioned that his first two weeks at his new church in West Heidelberg have been good, with the first meeting focusing on Acts 2, followed by Romans 12.

And David mentioned the beautiful way that The Message bible puts that verse about love in Ro12:9 "Love from the center of who you are; don't fake it."

I've never really got into The Message, so that's some encouragement (the ESV puts it "Let love be genuine.")

And a reminder:

WA bible teacher David Boan returns to Melbourne this week! (see posts of 5th and 8th Sept below)

He will be talking again at St Luke's Anglican Church, Vermont, continuing on his series on discipleship. First talk is on Wednesday night, 29th Oct. at 7.45 pm. This will be a review of the first 5 talks. Then same time Friday 31st (on righteousness), Saturday 1st Nov at 2.30 pm (holiness), and continuing at 7.45 pm on Monday 3/11, Wed 5/11 and Fri 7/11.

Details from Richard Temby (03) 9874-1360.

# posted by geoff @ 11:58 am

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Welcome David...

We have a new member, David Horne, and I'll let him introduce himself (if he's inclined) - but I just want to mention that he is a very special person to us, and to about a thousand kids, because he's the "chaplain" (Christian counsellor) at our local gov't secondary school, St Helena Secondary College.

I know how significant David's ministry already is at the college, and it's only begun! But in a nutshell, kids face all sorts of crises through their teen years, and David is there to lend a sympathetic ear, provide sound advice, and basically to care for them (in a totally confidential way, because chaplains have none of the mandatory reporting requirements that all other teachers have - so kids can talk to David knowing it will go no further).

We heard of one chaplain, who his local community said of him "he always preached the gospel - and on occasions used words" (the example of someone like David around the school can speak loudly to kids, many of whom will never have set foot near a church, ever).

David, we look forward to you posting and sharing your inspiration with us!

# posted by geoff @ 11:40 am

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Sunday, October 26, 2003

Vertical Living

Been thinking a bit about Ecclesiastes - which is odd for me, as I've found it too melancholy in the past. But today, I was thinking that while we don't hear much of God's voice in this book (ie. it's not His voice which is speaking in it to us), He's certainly speaking to us THROUGH it. We learn a lot from who Solomon was (perhaps the only living person to ever have that much of what this world can offer) and that seems to underline what he discovered through bitter experience - that it's all "meaningless".

I liked the thought from yesterday's BSF leaders' mtg that Eccl. is about "horizontal" living - what results from simply living for and experiencing everything "under the sun"; whereas the extra dimension that is so clear in David's life is a vertical one - a faith that reaches far higher than the sun and a relationship with the living God that extends way above "everything under the sun". We see it in David's prayer life (psalms); in David's talking with God (and God's real-time responses), and in David's faith to trust God's responses to his questions and to act on them.

And we see the vertical life in Ephesians especially (this is God speaking about His desire for man, which is far from meaningless) - eg. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places". God's children live knowing blessing (happiness) in HEAVENLY PLACES - ie. not "under the sun".

Look at the way Paul puts the exact opposite of Solomon's experience "under the sun", in Eph3:14-19

"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith - that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God."

That's vertical living!!!

And similar thoughts in Col3:

"If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth."

One of the tremendous attributes of God is that He makes Himself available to mankind, to fill that aching need that nothing else can satisfy.

I bow my knee before Your throne
I know my life is not my own
I offer up this song of praise
To bring You pleasure Lord

("I Bow My Knee Before Your Throne", Bonnie Deuschle c.1990, Integrity's Hosanna! Music)

# posted by geoff @ 8:45 pm

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More Cyber Hymns

Don't know how good this site is - but here's the url, check it out and let's know!

# posted by geoff @ 8:00 pm

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Saturday, October 25, 2003

George Bush

I heard his speech which was very well written and well presented by George W. But does good presentation make him right.

George talks only of strong military action, to counter the many problems in the world. He meddled in Iraq to 'make America safer' for he knew that Sadam supported terrorist, (probably Sadam said 'good on ya mate' after Sept. 11). He is inconsistent: not meddling in other countries where the governments leave a lot to be desired, it seems. And the people of the world dislike, and often hate, Americans. In Iraq the youths will throw rocks at the yankees, and there is a steady flow of US forces coming home in coffins. Good work George!

If George is a Christian where is the evidence in good works?

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:37 pm

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Gary on faith

Do I have faith? Maybe. I have knowledge
I have understanding of God and his ways
I have a Christian life and I live it , imperfectly, and the knowlege, understanding and living are growing.

Is faith a gift from God? Yes help to know and understand is a gift from God.

When Jesus said 'faith has made you whole' before the faith was the seeking of him.

I'm not doing this well, I'll write something about George Bush.

# posted by Anonymous @ 5:30 pm

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Wednesday, October 22, 2003

Faith a Gift ....

Geoff, I looked "Faith" up on Crossdaily (KJV) and did you know (according to that site) there are only two mentions of "faith" in the OT!!! Does that tell us anything?

Faith is almost always spoken of in a growing way. Many times Jesus said to people, "Thy faith has made thee whole". Thus faith came before the healing. I think this is true for today, we need faith to be able to believe and trust that God can heal. (Heal, as in spiritual healing is what I am referring to here).

Here is a verse that MIGHT mean a gift of sorts, but maybe not?

1 Timothy 1:14
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

And this verse hints at faith being gifted or given..... (delivered)

Jude 1:3
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

It also speaks of being taught faith.

1 Timothy 2:7
Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Well, I cannot find any more verses about it being a gift, (I suspect you found the only one!!) but it is obviously something which CAN be gifted.

In personal conclusion, I am continuing to pray daily and more often for Faith to be bestowed on me.

(and for my hayfever to abate :)))) AHHHHHHHCHOOOOOOOOO

# posted by Caroline @ 7:07 am

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Tuesday, October 21, 2003

Faith a Gift

Carol, I think this scripture in Eph2 is often used to show that even our faith in God is a gift from God.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast. (NIV)

In the ESV translation, that meaning is not so clear (I don't think):

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But I still think faith is a gift from God (in 1Cor12, speaking of spiritual gifts "to another faith by the same Spirit"). What are other proof texts for faith being gifted?

# posted by geoff @ 4:37 pm

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How do we get Faith?

(Thanks Geoff)

God spoke severely to me on an early Sunday morning walk.
"Carol, you are lacking in faith. I can do so many great things through you, but until you have faith, I cannot do this".
He then reminded me of Moses and how his impatience etc made him strike that rock. Because of this, he did not miss out on an eternity with God, but he did miss out some of the wonderful possibilities God had prepared for him on this earth.
He said, I am missing out of many things which he desires to do with me.

I found myself praying rather desperately, "Lord, how do I get this faith? Please help me."

He told me to keep close to Him daily, no matter what.
He then told me something a little amazing!

He told me He will gift this faith to me in a special way. He said we can get faith in two ways.... gifted from Him or a growth through prayer and experiences.

He said the growth way is very good and normal. But if we pray for faith with a heart of absolutely truth, then He can gift it.

OK, so I don 't know more than this at this point, but I will keep you posted:)

Meanwhile since then, I know I have prayed with all my heart for this faith.

# posted by Caroline @ 1:56 pm

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The Church

This week's BSF doctrine (as we study the young life of Solomon) is "The Church". Which fits with some of Gary's challenging comments of earlier. Here's what Grant had to say on this:

The Church is the company of God's redeemed people - Christ the head. It's established on the apostolic foundation. It wasn't an afterthought of God's (following the work of salvation). It comprises the bride of Christ.

Grant touched on the visible (form) part of church - the building down the road, etc - which enables communion. And he's clearly a believer in the "invisible church" being all true believers, nothing to do with denominations. A spiritual body.

He mentioned the denomination (whisper - RC!) that holds the church in such esteem that many believe there's no salvation without the (RC!) church. But as with many things, protestant reaction can go too far, and it's important that we (non-RC's) don't neglect meeting together as a body. He mentioned how in Acts 2:38 we see salvation through repentance, then 8 verses later the injunction to come together.

Solomon knew a personal relationship with God, yet he was instrumental in bringing the people together to worship around the temple (1Kings 8).

# posted by geoff @ 1:38 pm

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Our Blog

Carol, don't you dare bow out now. Don't even consider it, for one moment. Please! And Stan, truly great to hear from you, keep posting the occasional piece please, because there's some of us here who value your wisdom and understanding - and you encourage us to find strength in the Lord!

If any of you know anyone who would care to join in, please do some PR and invite them (I can arrange the mechanics, just send me their email). Currently, we have about 20 invites that have just recently gone out.

I think that as we patiently wait on God's timing, that something like this forum will find it's use - after all, it's not only for social interaction amongst us (nice as that is) but to share with the world (and they will find us if they need us) our inspiration in the Lord!

# posted by geoff @ 1:30 pm

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Monday, October 20, 2003

Hell?

Hi Stan. Glad to see you here!! Maybe I can bow out now, as I, on this list, am like the little dog yapping at the peoples feet not accomplishing much:(

However, I am going to say what I wanted to ask for a while! It's taking courage here, but I've got the courage! After all, you guys don't even know me - so at worst I can sneak out, close all emails, and noone need ever hear from me again!!!!!

Heres the thing:
I am noticing many christians nowdays are saying there is no hell!!!!!!!
But heaven exists!
That seems amusing to me.... heaven, but no hell. Sounds like picking and choosing?

Sort me out then.. go on....

# posted by Caroline @ 8:28 pm

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Sunday, October 19, 2003

Proverbs

Its always good to read and study the proverbs again as in BSF this week. They appeal to my sceptical side, and my desire to learn more of God's teachings for coping with the world.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 8:53 am

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Saturday, October 18, 2003

more thoughts on Spong

All reformers have been labelled ratbags

but

his theology is wrong -- I go along with biblical teaching on the fundamentals of our faith

but

another part of his thrust is right -- the church is insular, middle-class, married etc. as I said before

yet

within the church are some minor aspects that are very good, modern and outreaching, and I hope David Peake's efforts succeed. The North and the West of Melbourne seem very much empty of Christainity but for some small churches, and there seems to be a need for a new approach or many new approaches

and

I think Jack Spong stirs up a very worthwhile debate -- who does the church appeal to?

enough, I thought what you wrote David was very wise.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 3:53 pm

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Friday, October 17, 2003

Gary - Fundamentalists

Gary,

The Age article on Spong (yep, it's his his real name Carol!) defines "fundamentalism" like this:

Fundamentalists were so named in the early 20th century for defending a set of five doctrines they regarded as fundamental: the inspiration of Scripture as the revealed word of God; the virgin birth as guarantee of Christ’s divine nature; salvation through his death; his physical resurrection; and his eventual second coming. To Spong, these are not just naive but eminently rejectable.

So, I'm never sure what defines a fundamentalist, but if it's those five doctrines then guess I qualify. And Spong doesn't.

Now, I agree with you about "the church". Which is (partly) why I home-church for fellowship, I guess. And it's also part of my vision (if I have one!) for my role/job for God - and maybe this blog is part of that - to break down denominational barriers, to point out the absurdities of traditions and form in "the church" (whichever flavour you choose), and to make the church relevant to those in our societies who really need it - but are alienated by the brick building down the road called "the *** church" (where *** = Baptist, Anglican, AOG, RC, you name it).

Which is why I hope and pray that David Peake's new "church outside the box" in West Heidelberg works - and why what guys like Richard Temby and David Boan are doing excites me.

So Gary, I agree lets fix the church - but that doesn't mean throwing "essential" Christian doctrines out with the bathwater of rigid form and tradition (does it?).

# posted by geoff @ 10:28 am

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Hymn

Geoff, this touched my heart. It is how I feel these days. Thanks:)

I want You more than gold or silver,
Only You can satisfy.
You alone are the real joy giver
And the apple of my eye.

PS Spong sounds interesting. Is that REALLY his name?

# posted by Caroline @ 6:50 am

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Thursday, October 16, 2003

John Spong

I'm not entirely against the guy:

first should we be judgemental but second

is he right that the church needs to reach all people

Being a working class person I can assure you that the church is not for me: its middle class -- married, for those who have plenty of time on the weekend and its very wordy. It certainly is not for single people, and for those who want to do something -- its just sit there and shut up and soak up.

Spong is right the church needs to be rescued from fundamentalists. Yes Geoff Williams

# posted by Anonymous @ 9:28 pm

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As The Deer - Ps.42

Before we leave the psalms (we move on this week in BSF!) here's Martin Nystrom's great song from Ps42:1-2 (1984):

As the deer pants for the water,
So my soul longs after You.
You alone are my heart’s desire
And I long to worship You.

You alone are my strength, my shield.
To You alone will my spirit yield.
You alone are my heart’s desire
And I long to worship You.

I want You more than gold or silver,
Only You can satisfy.
You alone are the real joy giver
And the apple of my eye.

You alone are my strength, my shield.
To You alone will my spirit yield.
You alone are my heart’s desire
And I long to worship You.

You're my friend, and You are my brother
Even though You are a King.
I love You more than any other
So much more than anything.

You alone are my strength, my shield.
To You alone will my spirit yield.
You alone are my heart’s desire
And I long to worship You.

# posted by geoff @ 1:35 pm

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Wednesday, October 15, 2003

Shelby Spong in Land of Oz

Some would question which planet the good bishop is on. But actually, he's doing a promotional tour downunder for his new book.

In this article from the Melbourne Age, you can read Spong's views on God, Christ, the bible, prayer, ethics, sexuality and conservative Christians.

Having just spent a week with BSF in the psalms, which are regarded as model prayers (words given us by the Holy Spirit for us to use in many different circumstances - when we mightn't have the right words ourselves), Spong's views on prayer are interesting:

In prayer Christians engage with God, in praise and petition, in meditation. Spong sees it as somewhat less elevated. "I don’t believe you can manipulate God to get your will done. I refer to most prayer as adult letters to Santa Claus: 'dear God, I've been a very good boy, please do A, B, C and D for me'."

Spong claims to be a Christian, but rejects effectively everything (including the divinity of Christ and any notion of inspired scripture) that defines Christianity. The very extreme end of a very wide spectrum...

# posted by geoff @ 4:43 pm

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New West Heidelberg Church

David, how did your new church go last night? I am keen to hear! What is the next step? (and what happens with the old red-brick bldg??)

# posted by geoff @ 4:38 pm

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Tuesday, October 14, 2003

Book Review

Power and Glory: Jacobean England and the Making of the King James Bible

The Age wrote this up under the heading "The work of a committee that worked", and the book tells the tale of how the various committees worked to give us the KJV bible. Judging by the reviews, this is a worthwhile book. The Financial Review review is a good one, starting:
The King James Bible has long been established as the best literary work ever written by a committee, and in Power and Glory: Jacobean England and the Making of the King James Bible Adam Nicolson has set himself the agreeable task of finding out how this masterpiece came to be.

The Guardian review was quite detailed; for instance:
It was not a flawless piece of work, the Pauline Epistles being particularly troublesome, with potential confusion hidden in endless subordinate clauses. Nor was it wholly original, some parts of it being lifted wholesale from William Tyndale's Bible and many phrases transposed from the Catholic Douai Bible. But what is uniquely brilliant about the Authorised Version is its feeling for the cadences and rhythms of the language, its soaring flights of imagination and "its air of irreproachable authority, which is the essence of sacred ritual".

And here's a review by a Uniting Ch. minister, for example:
The KJV, as Nicolson points out, served us well and still has grace and beauty that can enrich the church and culture of today. But, as Nicolson seems to admit when he says he believes but does not attend, the church of today needs new tools to understand God, even if the tools are not as sharp as those of the translators of the KJV. For those for whom the KJV was important in their faith journey, or for anyone who wishes to understand our cultural heritage, this book is required reading.

The Amazon site gives some further reviews, and a discount on the book. And in the US it's got a different title "God's Secretaries".

# posted by geoff @ 4:44 pm

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Monday, October 13, 2003

Order and Women and Teaching and Preaching and.... ...

Geoff,
I sat here staring at the screen and I discovered that I don't even have an opinion to offer! (My husband would say: Chalk it up!!!!!)

So, I will rest on this statement you made (for the time being!) :

Anyway I don't want to agonise over any of this too much. I find with difficult issues like this, if I just keep an open mind and unhardened heart while I ask and seek answers from God, then if they don't come, then I guess they're not important (for us at this time)!

I personally have found, that there is no doubt about it ... God is like that angel at the pool of Siloam, and from time to time "stirs my waters" and I am forced to begin a period of time of searching something out.

I loved what you said about keeping an "unhardened heart"!

But please someone (anyone!), I would love to hear thoughts on this.

By the way, if anyone who is not a member is reading this and has an opinion to offer on anything on this list, please please use the email thingee on here and have your say! Or ask any question! We would LOVE to hear from you:)

# posted by Caroline @ 8:19 pm

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Victoria's Anglican Rebels!

I suspect we might have a few amongst us on this blog, actually (Anglican 'rebels')! But it's a good topic, albeit a potentially very divisive one - and one which can cause much frustration and heartbreak for very many in the church, particularly the women.

From yesterday's front page of the Sunday Age:

Victoria rebels on women bishops

The Melbourne Anglican synod has broken ranks with the rest of the Anglican Church, approving the immediate ordination of women bishops.

The motion was passed by an overwhelming majority and pits the conservative Sydney diocese against the more progressive Melbourne diocese.

Well, I'm glad that this isn't a "salvation" issue; I don't think ultimately that it is one of those "essential doctrine" matters worth dying in a ditch over. But it does call into question things like the authority of scripture, and how we go about interpreting scripture.

Recently, Carol & I have been having a chat about God's order in the natural side of church, and in particular how we understand that verse in 1Ti2:12-14 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

Here are some of my "thoughts" (& questions) on this, and I would align more closely with the "conservative Sydney" lot, whose basic foundational faith in the authority of scripture I have very much valued. BUT I have many dear Christian friends who see these things very differently...

If Paul (inspired by the Holy Spirit because it's scripture) says something (eg. on order in God's church, or on appearance), then the principle behind the suggestion is what is important. In the case of women not exercising authority over men in the church, then the principle (as clearly stated by Paul) is that it's a recognition (by God) of the Adam & Eve situation (ie. something that stands as a reminder for all time).

I think in many other cases where Paul gives instruction, we see (explicitly or implicitly) that the underlying principle is one of modesty or not looking like prostitutes (appearance), or of practical benefit (not chit-chatting about non-significant issues during formal times of worship). In these instances we today need to apply the same principles (in a way appropriate to today's society).

And here are some of Carol's queries:

>You and I agree with 'order'.
>
>Now.... you say about appearance not mattering.. and Paul
>spoke all those things about appearance.
>You suggest the order of men, then women is something to
>think about. (Are we talking the equality thing here? Like,
>women and men on the same level as is deemed by western
>society now to be correct?)
>
>So, one thing matters (order) but not the other (appearance)?
>How much to the letter does a person go with the order thing?

Well, I must confess that personally I have no problem with women preachers, and I think women prophesying (speaking from their hearts about what God means, or has revealed to them) is always very envouraging, whether we are a listening male or female.

And I would have to say that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, as far as women preaching goes - I believe I have clearly seen women preachers leading people to faith.

But the thing Paul talks about, as a no no (based on the creation argument, ie. God's order) is women teaching ("exercising authority over") men.

This means no problem with women teaching other women (like at BSF), nor women teaching children; it's just women teaching men in that passage of scripture. Also a woman taking a position as elder of a church containing men would violate those words of Paul?

Now I think I hold women in the church in as high (if not higher, really) esteem than men - but I'm trying to align my position with what the Holy Spirit in this passage of scripture is telling us is best for the church, based on God's chosen order (who knows or understands exactly why?).

Modern western culture is for women being exactly equal to men in all regards - and this is my instinct. But is it God's order???

Anyway I don't want to agonise over any of this too much. I find with difficult issues like this, if I just keep an open mind and unhardened heart while I ask and seek answers from God, then if they don't come, then I guess they're not important (for us at this time)!

In conclusion; the issue, I feel, is that when the Holy Spirit (through Paul) gave this instruction, He based it upon a creation-argument (and hence we are not at liberty to simply take it as cultural advice for a particular time but not relevant to our own - progressive as far as women's status goes - society today).

As far as status of women in the Christian church goes, the Holy Spirit (through that same guy, Paul :-)) tell us we are "all one in Christ Jesus" and that's how I view and accept my brothers and sisters - despite each having such diversity of spiritual gifts - for the "common good" of the church. And perhaps the gift of teaching is given to women to be exercised in a very important yet specialised way with other women and particularly children?

But what do others think??

# posted by geoff @ 10:53 am

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Saturday, October 11, 2003

Any advance on.......

the question of singular and collective prayer?

Whats the advantages of collective?

Listening...........?

# posted by Caroline @ 10:41 pm

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Righteousness - Atonement

Dave!
This statement of yours:
Our position before God is changed forever - he sees us as righteouss and sinless. made me excited!
Recently I discovered an article online which I printed and studied hard, and it was like a whole new insight into God and what Jesus did for us. I'm blown away (shhh don't tell anyone! ..... I've been a christian for 26 years and I've just had the scales fall from my eyes in this!)

I never realised exactly how GOD SEES US!
It is very late at night here, and I need to go..... but I do wish someone would please read this article and give me their thoughts on it. Please can someone???

Back in due course.........

# posted by Caroline @ 10:39 pm

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Friday, October 10, 2003

David Boan - Second Coming!

Yes, WA bible teacher David Boan returns to Melbourne and this is advance warning! (see posts of 5th and 8th Sept below)

He will be talking again at St Luke's Anglican Church, Vermont, continuing on his series on discipleship. First talk is on Wednesday night, 29th Oct. at 7.45 pm. This will be a review of the first 5 talks. Then same time Friday 31st (on righteousness), Saturday 1st Nov at 2.30 pm (holiness), and continuing at 7.45 pm on Monday 3/11, Wed 5/11 and Fri 7/11.

Details from Richard Temby (03) 9874-1360.

# posted by geoff @ 1:28 pm

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Blog Members

Carol, thanks for your little calming prayer-poem. I hope some others will give us good advice re communal vs private prayer in practice (you & I have limited experience :-))

Now, it was amazing about George Kovoor and his breakfast with all those BSF ladies. Maybe he would help us with our blog? And I have just sent invites to two friends I have got to know, Richard Temby who is pastor of St Luke's Anglican Church at Vermont in Melbourne; and Nicholas Gray who is a director of the company RL Allan of Glasgow, who publish bibles and hymn-books.

Nicholas's family used to run the bookstall at the original Keswick Convention for many years under the name Pickering & Inglis (their family business). They published many of the great Keswick preachers' books during those years as well as the official convention programmes.

I hope both Richard & Nicholas will find it worthwhile to join with our little fellowship group here!

# posted by geoff @ 1:15 pm

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Prayer Poem

This helps me to calm down sometimes, when my mind is aflutter and won't stop worrying about something:

I meet God in the morning
And go with Him through the day
Then in the stillness of the night
Before sleep comes, I pray
That God will just take over
All the problems I can't solve
And in the peacefulness of sleep
My cares will all dissolve.
So when I open up my eyes
To greet another day
I find myself renewed in strength
And God will open up a way!

# posted by Caroline @ 12:48 pm

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Prayers ... a question?

I've read a book or two lately, where people regularly (once a week as an ongoing thing) meet and just have a prayer meeting together. They have a thing they are all praying for and this is their way of doing this.

I would have thought each individual at home could accomplish the same thing.

So, has anyone got ideas on whether the group thing works better than each one alone?

# posted by Caroline @ 12:46 pm

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Rev'd Canon George Kovoor, Principal of Crowther Hall and Chaplain to the Queen!!!!!

This is fascinating!
And fancy him having the courage to have breakfast with a whole bunch of women!

# posted by Caroline @ 12:44 pm

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Thursday, October 09, 2003

Anglican Spectrum

Gary, we will keep alert eyes on the press, and for our o/seas friends here, try to give links to any interesting news stories from the Anglican synod. As an outsider, I am nevertheless quite impressed with the Anglicans - not that I agree with much of the formal stuff, altho probably a lot of it is harmless. But as far as a natural organisation goes, for someone like me who believes that the real church (or body of Christ, collection of true believers) is "invisible", then the very visible organisation called the Anglicans is quite a good natural place (seems to me!) to nurture and encourage the spiritual livelihood of its' members.

And I think that's about all any natural church is good for - providing a positive, nurturing environment where worship, fellowship, sound doctrine and the gospel message can blossom. And the Anglicans allow a very wide spectrum of people and beliefs to exist, all rubbing shoulders and undoubtedly many true believers amongst them.

I particularly appreciate the sound teaching that comes out of Moore College, Sydney. Should be an interesting week! And Gary, with your last comment, you'd better get down to David's "church outside the box" in W. Heidelberg next Tuesday evening. See you there??

# posted by geoff @ 10:04 pm

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Its happening in the Anglican church

This week the Sydney Diocese Synod is meeting, and so too is the Melbourne Diocese Synod, and John Shelby Spong is in Australia, again for he just about lives here. No doubt there will be controversy and bad publicity. The issues will be, as they usually are, women clergy, homosexuals and homosexual clergy, and lay presidency at communion. Much time will be wasted and I expect more divisions than unity, while they are all dressed up and looking glorious. What would Jesus think? What do I think? I'm overcome! let me out of it (the chuch).
Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 9:32 pm

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Our Blog

I seem to be talking to myself (madness!). So, a good time to review membership of our non-contributors (maybe suspend, so that others can be invited on-board)? If no squeels, this may happen...

And David P, re your new church starting Tuesday 14th October @ 6.30pm at West Heidelberg, I join with you in urging prayers for God's blessing on your work in a very needy area. And if you let us have the address, maybe possible for some to get along to encourage you all!

(Just been re-reading some of the old stuff here, because our archive for August wasn't complete - it's a blogger problem, missing archives, but it's all present and safe in the original blog. There's some good helpful insights, like Janice Sheridan's piece on "peace", 30th August, and much more...)

# posted by geoff @ 9:48 am

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Wednesday, October 08, 2003

Interesting NT Introductions

A friend has passed on the advice that there are interesting introductions to some of the NT books by Daniel Wallace on www.earlychristianwritings.com (this link is permanently in our "resources" list over on the left of screen).

He says to look in particular at 1Pe 2Pe Jude and John's gospel and the relationship between them. Click on the book then find DW intros under online resources. Enjoy!

(Here's an appetite-whetter from 1Pe:
Certainly one of the nagging doubts that all of Paul's converts would have would be the genuineness of their faith. Paul, after all, was not one of the original Twelve. After he died, this doubt would increase, and it is quite probable that false teachers would exploit it. But if a letter from Peter—the very man Paul had rebuked at Antioch, and had written the Galatians about—confirmed their faith and told them not to give up, this would indeed be great encouragement. Peter would tacitly be affirming both Paul's doctrine and the Gentile mission. He would be saying, in effect, "Paul was a true apostle and you are true children of God. Don’t give up the boat.")

# posted by geoff @ 5:22 pm

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George Kovoor - Queen's Chaplain

OK, I'll kick off with the little i know of this remarkable story - Dave or Gary can probably add more.

At BSF Monday night, Cheryl the Big Chief (remember, it's a ladies' bible study, begun by and for women, and the guys just happened to press along in) told us that she and her off-sider Pat had been in Brisbane where a new men's group is just starting (50th BSF study in Australia, incidentally).

At the early Saturday morning leaders' mtg, Cheryl & Pat were saying goodbyes and there was an Indian chap in the doorway moving some chairs. He asked Pat what they had been doing, and why so happy at such an early hour on a Saturday.

Pat went into recruitment mode, showing this man who they assumed may be the sacristan examples of the BSF notes and weekly questions. Cheryl arrived, believing they'd found a new recruit for the newly formed men's group. But he told them that he wasn't from Brisbane, rather from the UK. Cheryl, ever the opportunist, mentioned that in that case he may like to join the London men's BSF. Looking quizzical, he handed her his business card which dispelled any ideas of him being the Brisbane sacristan, but Cheryl popped this away without reading.

A little later, Cheryl & Pat were just leaving the building and their Indian friend asked where they were off to now. They told him they were going to a ladies' breakfast with all the other BSF ladies of Brisbane. To which he responded "I'm hungry too - can I join you?"

Now, for all those who know BSF, this is where the miracle happened. Because ladies and men just don't mix at such functions, never ever. Totally verboten. And Pat, 2IC and charged with upholding all the virtues of BSF, responded... YES, come along! (would love to have seen Cheryl's face by now!).

So, along he comes to breakfast with all the ladies - and Cheryl just happens to glance at his card:

Rev'd Canon George Kovoor, Principal of Crowther Hall and Chaplain to the Queen!!!!!

The ladies had a treat for breakfast, and some interesting stories from the Queen's own chaplain.

George K comes originally from the ancient Mar Thoma church in India, and has risen through the Anglican ranks as well as representing India as a yachtsman in the Olympics.

# posted by geoff @ 3:24 pm

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Thanks Gary, appreciated your thought-provoking insights on David. I trust I will never stop learning (it's rather exciting!).

BTW, now I'm back and life will hopefully stabilise, I'm going to do some recruiting for the blog (what about the Queen's chaplain, that Indian chap?) Do you want to tell us that (amazing) story?

And a church billboard:

"Don't keep the faith!" and on other side "spread it around".

# posted by geoff @ 12:09 pm

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Tuesday, October 07, 2003

righteousness

Geoff,
We keep learning. According to my understanding (with help from my NBD) 'righteousness' came from the Arabic word for 'straightness' and used in the bible, especially the OT, means 'straightness of relationship with God".

So God delt with David according to the (not very good) straightness of his relationship with Him, after the time of David many wrongs, not just murder and adultery, but not leading the army as a king should, and also taking the woman, who on the death of her husband, should have been married to his brother.

I think that God loved David so much for the way that he admitted his own sins and accepted the punishment, never losing faith and never being angry at God for metering out justice.

Gary

# posted by Anonymous @ 9:44 pm

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David & Grace

Someone mentioned that if David lived now he would not be able to take part in our home-church meetings because he was an adulterer. But that maybe he would have been able to after he killed Bathsheba's husband :-) David a man after God's own heart!

Well yep, he resorted to murder to cover his adultery. And here's what David had to say about himself after that:

2Sam22:21-22 "The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands he has rewarded me. For I have kept the ways of the LORD; I have not done evil by turning from my God"

This was after David's sin with Bathsheba and murder of Uriah. Was David kidding himself, talking about his (David's) righteousness, clean hands, not turned from God? The remarkable (absolutely fundamental to our Christian lives, I believe) truth here is that David, a very obvious sinner, after he turned (in repentance) back to God after that horrible time in his life, was in fact totally reinstated into a position of righteousness in his relationship with God.

That's grace!

David didn't go about in sackcloth and ashes after his repentance, feeling unworthy and living like a failure - rather, he rejoiced in God's forgiveness and his restored righteousness. Praising God in 2Sam22.

True repentance brings assured forgiveness (God is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness), and we are saved from the penalty and power of sin in our lives. But God never promised to save us from the natural consequences of our sin - which in David's case manifested themselves in his children (also sexual immorality), the nation he ruled, and in his own inability to build the temple he desired for God.

And yet he is totally forgiven and deemed righteous for all eternity by his heavenly Father.

Sadly, part of the natural consequences of sin (that we're not saved from whether we repent or not) is man's judgement and long memories!

# posted by geoff @ 5:11 pm

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David & Bathsheba

Got back from Vienna just in time to catch this week's BSF lecture, which was on last 14 ch's of 2 Samuel.

Grant summarised them as:
2Sam11-12 David's sin
2Sam13-20 David's sons' sin
2Sam21-24 Israel's future

and reminded us of the one-word summary of the whole of this year's BSF study of Israel and the Minor Prophets - "turn".

I am keen to hear any thoughts on how this all relates to God's will for individuals. When David stayed home in Jerusalem rather than going out to battle, was he acting in God's will or not (2Sam11 "In the spring of the year, the time when kings go out to battle, David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel. And they ravaged the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem")?

Here's the situation. The law says clearly "thou shalt not kill". David in staying home presumably was avoiding a situation (war) where he would be obliged to kill. But in that era (as it tells us in the passage) kings were expected to go out to battle at that time of year. Assuming God was with the Israelites as they fought their enemies (as it appears), was God expecting David to do his kingly duty? By staying home, David had idle time and this enabled the situation where David could sin with Bathsheba, wife of one of David's soldiers who was away at battle.

I don't suppose any of us could know for sure the answer to my question (did David act in God's will in staying home from battle?). But some interesting applications to ponder.

Two for me; whatever "rules" I think I understand from scripture, or others try to enforce, I need to seek God's will for me in every situation and then to obey it. And secondly to not leave God outside of my leisure activities (David's idle time created the circumstances)!

Guess another lesson is that David was driven by the situation he found himself in and his own (selfish) inclination. So, for us always to be guided by God (His will) and not to let circumstances dictate how we act.

# posted by geoff @ 5:04 pm

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Wednesday, October 01, 2003

Etc.

Welcome David from me too! I imagine you will have a lot to offer the world in this blog (as the world gradually finds us here!)!!!

As for "Church outside the box" .... and being spirit led etc, I sometimes wonder what it would be like if we had all our present knowledge of churches/church activities/church traditions/ commentaries/ etc all wiped! Then to start afresh.

And continuing in that train of thought, to have all this wiped ... and to start again, should be our attitide to God. In other words (very difficult to explain here) IF we are spirit led, and can blank out all present earth ideas, wouldn't it be so interesting what God may then be able to plant in our minds? Beautiful ready minds for His spirit to work.

I have had some radically different thoughts from God of recent times. But have noticed that God, not all at once, but gently has given me so much personal confirmation on how these different things can work. Things which can be backed by scripture.

For example, what does anyone here think of miracles? What about a visit from an angel? These happened in the Bible..... both NT and OT. Whats to stop them happening now?

Ahhhh, the weird and wonderful.......
ahhhh, the traditions that limit our thinking....
and our human minds....

# posted by Caroline @ 11:34 am

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